United Airlines apologizes after giving away toddler's seat
Jul 6, 2017, 8:14 am
#121
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Oh no, a tiny person. My heart bleeds. There's a good chance the FA she's dealing with is also a 'tiny person'. What does that have to do with anything? Would a 'big person' have a better chance of not getting kicked off the plane? I've seen a lot of questionable service conduct by FAs of different airlines but never did I wonder "Can I take this FA in a fight?" (as if it makes a difference either way). If that's your approach, maybe you have a problem.
Also she didn't 'just see' this incident. She perhaps saw it on the news 3 months ago. And it was an incident that wasn't all that similar to this one. For most people not gripped easily by public hysteria flying hasn't changed since then.
Nobody disputes UA staff made a mistake. That's obvious. What we say is that it was made a huge deal by this woman's apparent lack of effort to resolve her situation before the flight. And whether it's 'fair' or not, in these situations - on any airline - *you* have to make sure your issue is resolved. In a situation where a small number of staff have to take care of several dozens of people (and the logistics of commercial airplane operations) it's quite likely they will not be able to pay sufficient attention to your issue unless you make them.
The number one customer mistake is to assume that staff are magically aware of all issues surrounding the customer's situation and that there's no need to effectively communicate all the relevant aspects to the staff. This often leads to a breakdown in communication and then if things go predictably wrong 'It's their fault! I want my money!'
Also she didn't 'just see' this incident. She perhaps saw it on the news 3 months ago. And it was an incident that wasn't all that similar to this one. For most people not gripped easily by public hysteria flying hasn't changed since then.
Nobody disputes UA staff made a mistake. That's obvious. What we say is that it was made a huge deal by this woman's apparent lack of effort to resolve her situation before the flight. And whether it's 'fair' or not, in these situations - on any airline - *you* have to make sure your issue is resolved. In a situation where a small number of staff have to take care of several dozens of people (and the logistics of commercial airplane operations) it's quite likely they will not be able to pay sufficient attention to your issue unless you make them.
The number one customer mistake is to assume that staff are magically aware of all issues surrounding the customer's situation and that there's no need to effectively communicate all the relevant aspects to the staff. This often leads to a breakdown in communication and then if things go predictably wrong 'It's their fault! I want my money!'
i would tend to agree with the statement up thread that it seems the standby passenger didn't exactly help matters. He could've given up the seat once he realized the child already had a ticket for it. But it's still UA's fault.
Jul 6, 2017, 8:21 am
#122
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New York NY
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I don't get this blaming of the woman. She told the FA and she shrugged it off. Things sometimes move fast and unless you're a very assertive person, you suck it up and deal with it at the time (as she did), but on reflection, you feel like you've been had.
My wife and I were on a recent trip EWR-LAS when someone appeared with a boarding pass with the same seat number as hers, a middle seat, with their significant other next to it on the aisle. In this case, it wasn't an overbooked situation. Either my wife or this other person were going to have to sit somewhere else, and that would have been in a middle seat in E-, apart from their traveling companion. I started pulling rank as a million miler and the fact that the other person's seat assignment had just been made by the GA, but the GA for some reason (maybe they were non rev friends) starting playing eenie-meenie-minee-mo when my wife started with some humorous remarks which made the GA smile, and all of a sudden the other passenger was being shown another seat. I would have been plenty pissed, if for some reason, the GA reassigned my wife's seat, but being assertive was going to get me nowhere.
My wife and I were on a recent trip EWR-LAS when someone appeared with a boarding pass with the same seat number as hers, a middle seat, with their significant other next to it on the aisle. In this case, it wasn't an overbooked situation. Either my wife or this other person were going to have to sit somewhere else, and that would have been in a middle seat in E-, apart from their traveling companion. I started pulling rank as a million miler and the fact that the other person's seat assignment had just been made by the GA, but the GA for some reason (maybe they were non rev friends) starting playing eenie-meenie-minee-mo when my wife started with some humorous remarks which made the GA smile, and all of a sudden the other passenger was being shown another seat. I would have been plenty pissed, if for some reason, the GA reassigned my wife's seat, but being assertive was going to get me nowhere.
Jul 6, 2017, 8:32 am
#123
Join Date: Sep 2000
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I don't get this blaming of the woman. She told the FA and she shrugged it off. Things sometimes move fast and unless you're a very assertive person, you suck it up and deal with it at the time (as she did), but on reflection, you feel like you've been had.
My wife and I were on a recent trip EWR-LAS when someone appeared with a boarding pass with the same seat number as hers, a middle seat, with their significant other next to it on the aisle. In this case, it wasn't an overbooked situation. Either my wife or this other person were going to have to sit somewhere else, and that would have been in a middle seat in E-, apart from their traveling companion. I started pulling rank as a million miler and the fact that the other person's seat assignment had just been made by the GA, but the GA for some reason (maybe they were non rev friends) starting playing eenie-meenie-minee-mo when my wife started with some humorous remarks which made the GA smile, and all of a sudden the other passenger was being shown another seat. I would have been plenty pissed, if for some reason, the GA reassigned my wife's seat, but being assertive was going to get me nowhere.
My wife and I were on a recent trip EWR-LAS when someone appeared with a boarding pass with the same seat number as hers, a middle seat, with their significant other next to it on the aisle. In this case, it wasn't an overbooked situation. Either my wife or this other person were going to have to sit somewhere else, and that would have been in a middle seat in E-, apart from their traveling companion. I started pulling rank as a million miler and the fact that the other person's seat assignment had just been made by the GA, but the GA for some reason (maybe they were non rev friends) starting playing eenie-meenie-minee-mo when my wife started with some humorous remarks which made the GA smile, and all of a sudden the other passenger was being shown another seat. I would have been plenty pissed, if for some reason, the GA reassigned my wife's seat, but being assertive was going to get me nowhere.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jul 6, 2017 at 10:23 am Reason: Let's focus on the issue, not the other poster(s)
Jul 6, 2017, 8:39 am
#124
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Posts: 850
I am ignoring all the back and forth because UA allowed this to happen, and they are responsible for what happens on their planes. Anyone not holding UA responsible is victim blaming, and it doesn't matter what you think you would have done, or what you think should've happened. So please stop it.
Back on topic, simply stating "my child has a boarding pass" does not mean the child has an assigned seat. Lap children are issued boarding passes.
From personal experience, we (me, wife, and 7 yo son) already had UA flights booked to/from CA booked when my adopted daughter came to live us. We knew she would be a lap child, as she would only be 9.5 months old when we flew. So I called UA, and they added her to our itinerary. When we flew, she was issued her own boarding pass.
So, for an FA to hear that a child has a "boarding pass" does not communicate whether or not that child has an assigned seat. This is one more thing to consider as we all continue to over analyze a situation none of us have first-hand knowledge of.
Back on topic, simply stating "my child has a boarding pass" does not mean the child has an assigned seat. Lap children are issued boarding passes.
From personal experience, we (me, wife, and 7 yo son) already had UA flights booked to/from CA booked when my adopted daughter came to live us. We knew she would be a lap child, as she would only be 9.5 months old when we flew. So I called UA, and they added her to our itinerary. When we flew, she was issued her own boarding pass.
So, for an FA to hear that a child has a "boarding pass" does not communicate whether or not that child has an assigned seat. This is one more thing to consider as we all continue to over analyze a situation none of us have first-hand knowledge of.
Jul 6, 2017, 8:42 am
#125
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Houston/DC
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Posts: 564
According to the article, she told both the standby passenger and the FA that the child had a valid ticket. Where do you draw the line about how much one needs to "fight"? Maybe expecting the violence of the Dao incident was unreasonable, but being reminded of the fact that Dr Dao was booted off a UA flight despite having a valid ticket isn't.
i would tend to agree with the statement up thread that it seems the standby passenger didn't exactly help matters. He could've given up the seat once he realized the child already had a ticket for it. But it's still UA's fault.
i would tend to agree with the statement up thread that it seems the standby passenger didn't exactly help matters. He could've given up the seat once he realized the child already had a ticket for it. But it's still UA's fault.
Sure, its easy to see UA screwed up in the end here, but those of us who are pointing out where the passenger could have helped clarify the situation are not wrong and most are not "victim blaming" by pointing it out.
FT is about learning and sharing knowledge. Pointing out better ways to identify & handle situations (from both the airline & passengers side) should be one of the things we encourage.
Jul 6, 2017, 8:43 am
#126
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If you're going to break the rules, break ALL the rules. Go big or go home.
Jul 6, 2017, 8:48 am
#127
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Nah. I think once United committed to breaking FARs by having a 2+ year old sit in someone's lap for taxi, takeoff, and landing they should have gone WHOLE HOG and allowed the person with the highest frequent-flyer status and verified Global Entry to sit in the COCKPIT for taxi, takeoff, and landing. What a great elite-status perk, right?
If you're going to break the rules, break ALL the rules. Go big or go home.
If you're going to break the rules, break ALL the rules. Go big or go home.
BTW, do lap infants on UA get boarding passes for domestic flights? I thought they were just indicated on the PNR and boarding pass, with their own boarding passes and tickets (usually at 10%) for international.
Jul 6, 2017, 8:58 am
#128
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
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This is the only relevant piece of information. It is a violation of FAA regs to have a lap child over the age of 2. UA has a manifest with a list of the passengers' names and ages. UA employs GAs, FAs, and supervisors, who have a duty to comply with the FAA regulations and with UA's own policies. This is a complete failure of the GA and FA.
The GA had lots of opportunities to get this right, for instance they could have come on the plane and looked for the empty seat, and upon seeing it filled, inquired whom the passenger was (I have seen this happen many times). Or, they could have come on the intercom and asked the missing passenger to press his call button if he was present (again, common practice). The GA could have simply looked at the manifest and seen that the passenger who hadn't boarded was a child, but the rest of his party had boarded-- that should have set off suspicions. The FA could have asked to see BPs when informed of the seat dup, or the FA could have called the GA to compare the manifest to the actual passengers in the seat. All of these opportunities would have avoided this safety problem, and all were (apparently) missed.
Sure, the mother should have spoken up, and it sounds like she did and was dismissed. But fundamentally it isn't the passengers' job to straighten these things out. The passenger is the one paying UA to operate the service in accordance with the rules. I know we are all seasoned travelers and would like to think that things would have been different if we had been there (and they probably would have), but this causes us to miss the point sometimes.
The GA had lots of opportunities to get this right, for instance they could have come on the plane and looked for the empty seat, and upon seeing it filled, inquired whom the passenger was (I have seen this happen many times). Or, they could have come on the intercom and asked the missing passenger to press his call button if he was present (again, common practice). The GA could have simply looked at the manifest and seen that the passenger who hadn't boarded was a child, but the rest of his party had boarded-- that should have set off suspicions. The FA could have asked to see BPs when informed of the seat dup, or the FA could have called the GA to compare the manifest to the actual passengers in the seat. All of these opportunities would have avoided this safety problem, and all were (apparently) missed.
Sure, the mother should have spoken up, and it sounds like she did and was dismissed. But fundamentally it isn't the passengers' job to straighten these things out. The passenger is the one paying UA to operate the service in accordance with the rules. I know we are all seasoned travelers and would like to think that things would have been different if we had been there (and they probably would have), but this causes us to miss the point sometimes.
UA screwed up. And I hope they have to pay big time for it. Whether that money goes to the FAA or to the pax, I really do not care. I just want United to pay for their failure here.
Jul 6, 2017, 9:13 am
#129
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 105
Even if there was a scanning error, how are they justified in removing the already-seated passenger rather than denying the standby passenger boarding? As if that weren't enough, they went against FAA regs by forcing the 2 year old to fly on mom's lap and put the child's life in danger.
Thank you, airline mega mergers. Customers are left with little choice and an airline like United continues to operate.
Thank you, airline mega mergers. Customers are left with little choice and an airline like United continues to operate.
Jul 6, 2017, 9:29 am
#130
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 371
Most are pointing to the FA for this, some to the GA. I think pretty much all the blame should be directed at the GA for the boarding screw up and the FA for allowing the seating situation. This woman was mid-itinerary with a child. Clearly the child is with her on the same itinerary. If the A&B ticket scanned (or E&D) then the standby passenger won't clear into that seat. If the B ticket didn't scan then why in the world wasn't the gate agent not on board to find out why? It's the same itinerary, a child of that age didn't just disappear. After that you can address the serious (possibly life-threatening) danger the child was put in, because I don't see any adult controlling an unsecured person of 30lbs under the forces of heavy turbulence.
Jul 6, 2017, 9:34 am
#131
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Didn't the CEO issued a blanket statement after Dr.Dao's incident that United would NEVER remove a passenger from a flight after the passenger has boarded?
So in this case United chose to VIOLATE FAA safety regulation versus remove the standby passenger who obviously was allowed to board by GA mistake.
A few things stuck out on this
1) The mistake made by the GA.
2) The FA's attitude when the mix-up seat assignment surfaced. At a minimum the FA should check further on why should 2 passengers assigned the same seat... Yet the FA shrugged and walked away as "the flight was full". Yeah, the FAs are here primarily for our safety yet the FAA safety rules are clearly violated here.
Should there be any turbulence during the flight and the toddler got injured, UA would have yet another millions dollar lawsuit coming.
Sure, there are Unions and incompetent employees are protected but that has to end somewhere with so many incidents are caused by these unionized, incompetent, couldn't care less employees.
3) The stand-by passenger is some kind of character as well - who would take a seat from a child when apparently there was some kind of a mix up?
4) The "blame the victim" mentality prevailing on this thread is mind-boggling. How about this happens to you, your family, your friends? This kind of attitude is even worse than UA's sheer failure from top to bottom.
So in this case United chose to VIOLATE FAA safety regulation versus remove the standby passenger who obviously was allowed to board by GA mistake.
A few things stuck out on this
1) The mistake made by the GA.
2) The FA's attitude when the mix-up seat assignment surfaced. At a minimum the FA should check further on why should 2 passengers assigned the same seat... Yet the FA shrugged and walked away as "the flight was full". Yeah, the FAs are here primarily for our safety yet the FAA safety rules are clearly violated here.
Should there be any turbulence during the flight and the toddler got injured, UA would have yet another millions dollar lawsuit coming.
Sure, there are Unions and incompetent employees are protected but that has to end somewhere with so many incidents are caused by these unionized, incompetent, couldn't care less employees.
3) The stand-by passenger is some kind of character as well - who would take a seat from a child when apparently there was some kind of a mix up?
4) The "blame the victim" mentality prevailing on this thread is mind-boggling. How about this happens to you, your family, your friends? This kind of attitude is even worse than UA's sheer failure from top to bottom.
Jul 6, 2017, 10:01 am
#132
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Most are pointing to the FA for this, some to the GA. I think pretty much all the blame should be directed at the GA for the boarding screw up and the FA for allowing the seating situation. This woman was mid-itinerary with a child. Clearly the child is with her on the same itinerary. If the A&B ticket scanned (or E&D) then the standby passenger won't clear into that seat. If the B ticket didn't scan then why in the world wasn't the gate agent not on board to find out why? It's the same itinerary, a child of that age didn't just disappear. After that you can address the serious (possibly life-threatening) danger the child was put in, because I don't see any adult controlling an unsecured person of 30lbs under the forces of heavy turbulence.
Jul 6, 2017, 10:51 am
#134
Join Date: Dec 2014
Programs: UA GS ,QF Plat
Posts: 686
Agreed I have spent 20 years traveling and living a few years in Asia , as you say cultures can be poles part.
Jul 6, 2017, 10:55 am
#135
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: A small town in North Georgia
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Posts: 1,626
Whenever I've been in a duplicate seat situation, the FA always asked to see everyone's boarding passes. The FA bears the responsibility for making sure pax are in their assigned seat, and in this case was the one who's at fault.