Past incident with elderly United passenger in Houston leads to lawsuit
Jun 14, 2017, 1:02 pm
#46
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Jun 14, 2017, 1:07 pm
#47
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I would tend to agree this case will be at the very high end of the spectrum. It's intentional conduct by the employee and both that initial push and the subsequent failure to provide aid (to a 70 year old man) evidence a callous disregard for the passenger's rights that make punitive damages a near certainty. UA won't want this case anywhere near a Texas jury.
Jun 14, 2017, 1:20 pm
#48
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That says everything about United's culture. This is not a bad apple problem. It is far worse than that.
But I do agree with you, minnyfly, that the leadership in the end is to blame for allowing this culture to persist, not the employees.
Jun 14, 2017, 1:33 pm
#49
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I notice they don't say whether he was fired or if he continued to work for UA and eventually left later for his own reasons.
No mention of the other employees who stood around and did nothing.
The passenger the UA employee pushed down? He's an attorney.
The fact that UA didn't immediately rush to shut this down is not only a sign of a toxic corporate culture; it's a sign of a remarkably stupid one.
I can't imagine what kind of payout UA would be looking at if the man had died, or been much more severely injured than he was. I'm disgusted that the attacker wasn't convicted of assault. I'm more disgusted by a corporate culture that doesn't even clean up its act to protect its bottom line.
No mention of the other employees who stood around and did nothing.
The passenger the UA employee pushed down? He's an attorney.
The fact that UA didn't immediately rush to shut this down is not only a sign of a toxic corporate culture; it's a sign of a remarkably stupid one.
I can't imagine what kind of payout UA would be looking at if the man had died, or been much more severely injured than he was. I'm disgusted that the attacker wasn't convicted of assault. I'm more disgusted by a corporate culture that doesn't even clean up its act to protect its bottom line.
Jun 14, 2017, 1:43 pm
#50
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Couldn't have said it much better. It's a broken record.
I'd gladly mouth off (and whatever else it took for this guy) and get pushed to the ground for a million dollars. No excuse for the employee's actions, but there's been times in the retail sector when I wanted to clock a customer that was verbally abusing me. The bottom line is that you have tens of thousands of employees, unfortunately not everyone is a saint and will properly restrain themselves. There's bad apples in every company. As a customer, I'm concerned with the bad apples at the top, not the ones at the bottom that strike when provoked. You can avoid the second. You can't always avoid the first.
Makes you wonder what exactly happened before the video clip (it doesn't look we have the whole story), and during the final exchange. I mean, NOBODY in the area came to his aid. No UA person. Not fellow passengers standing just feet away. The first person to check on him came from outside the video view many seconds later. That's telling about what people possibly thought of the passenger as well.
I'd gladly mouth off (and whatever else it took for this guy) and get pushed to the ground for a million dollars. No excuse for the employee's actions, but there's been times in the retail sector when I wanted to clock a customer that was verbally abusing me. The bottom line is that you have tens of thousands of employees, unfortunately not everyone is a saint and will properly restrain themselves. There's bad apples in every company. As a customer, I'm concerned with the bad apples at the top, not the ones at the bottom that strike when provoked. You can avoid the second. You can't always avoid the first.
Makes you wonder what exactly happened before the video clip (it doesn't look we have the whole story), and during the final exchange. I mean, NOBODY in the area came to his aid. No UA person. Not fellow passengers standing just feet away. The first person to check on him came from outside the video view many seconds later. That's telling about what people possibly thought of the passenger as well.
Did you even watch the raw surveillance footage shown in the article (not the news report clip). It shows the incident from the very beginning, when the passenger walked up to the United staff from off camera.
And it was bad enough for several people in the area to stop what they are doing and not move on. IMO, they did not rush to the persons aid as there were uniformed United staff right next to him, who should have been handling the event. Or maybe they were concerned for their own safety after witnessing the attack on the passenger?
Once the staff wanders a bit away is when the Nurse comes over to assist.
There is no justification nor defense to this one.
Last edited by goodeats21; Jun 14, 2017 at 2:19 pm
Jun 14, 2017, 1:49 pm
#51
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Hence, my prior analysis. 7 figures is certainly possible in this case, especially if he had a closed head injury and is suffering from permanent cognitive function, memory loss and/or permanent disability. On the other hand, if his actual damages are only a few thousand dollars and there are no future care concerns, then he would be lucky to settle in the 5 figures. (What helps is the certain egregious behavior). Also, if he is a high wage earner and is missing work because of his injuries, his damages for lost wages will accrue very quickly.
Jury award is another matter and there are exemplary damages which can be awarded in this case. In most cases in Texas, exemplary damages are capped but they may not be in this case if it is considered conduct that is exempt from the cap (Ie certain felonies).
Put it this way, if you are a 45 year old male and are in a plane crash in the US by a US carrier with clear liability of the carrier (which in my opinion would be far worse than a United employee pushing you on the floor), you are a high wage earner at the time (100k per year +), and suffered cervical herniation's with stenosis (compression of the spine) requiring surgery and the insertion of plates, you can expect the settlement to be about $2.7mm.
Also, by way of comparison Harris County (IAH) in Texas is more conservative than Nueces County (Corpus)-so geography will also play into the determination.
In my experience, most case are somewhere around 2-3 times damages-but there are exceptions, and I believe this case may be one of them. So to get to a million, you have to have at least 200k in verifiable damages after they are adjusted for the paid/incurred requirement). In other words, 300k-400k in medical bills, lost wages, etc...
Last edited by coplatsat; Jun 14, 2017 at 2:00 pm
Jun 14, 2017, 2:10 pm
#52
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True, but not a single employee of the more than 10 I counted in that video did anything to help. 5 directly witnessed it, and another 5+ saw the man afterwards. Yet it took a passenger, not a United employee, to finally come to the person's aid. That is a complete lack of empathy.
That says everything about United's culture. This is not a bad apple problem. It is far worse than that.
But I do agree with you, minnyfly, that the leadership in the end is to blame for allowing this culture to persist, not the employees.
That says everything about United's culture. This is not a bad apple problem. It is far worse than that.
But I do agree with you, minnyfly, that the leadership in the end is to blame for allowing this culture to persist, not the employees.
I do put some blame on the employees as they are the ones behaving in an inhuman manner, quite apparent in this situation.
Jun 14, 2017, 2:21 pm
#53
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As I mentioned upthread, there is NO excuse for UA management's failure, after the Dao incident, to scour the company for other potential events of this nature, and take proactive action to prevent public disclosure.
I'll defend UA when they are right, such as with the spoiled tennis player. When an employee physically assaults an elderly man, and then NO ONE does ANYTHING to help him - that conduct is simply indefensible.
Jun 14, 2017, 2:32 pm
#54
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Seriously?
Did you even watch the raw surveillance footage shown in the article. It shows the incident from the very beginning, when the passenger walked up to the United staff from off camera.
And it was bad enough for several people in the area to stop what they are doing and not move on. IMO, they did not rush to the persons aid as there were uniformed United staff right next to him, who should have been handling the event. Or maybe they were concerned for their own safety after witnessing the attack on the passenger?
Did you even watch the raw surveillance footage shown in the article. It shows the incident from the very beginning, when the passenger walked up to the United staff from off camera.
And it was bad enough for several people in the area to stop what they are doing and not move on. IMO, they did not rush to the persons aid as there were uniformed United staff right next to him, who should have been handling the event. Or maybe they were concerned for their own safety after witnessing the attack on the passenger?
If you think that was the beginning, I'm going to challenge you to provide the evidence that it is. And think about it. Do you trust the media to provide the whole story these days? Not a chance.
I'll provide the evidence that it wasn't. The video shows him entering the check-in area, and he appears to indeed have the boarding pass that was a stated point of contention. When he enters the field of view, he certainly appears to be upset, and there's a verbal exchange with the UA employees. One employee takes what is apparently his boarding pass to the desk. But he's definitely not done when he talks to the employee that he has the physical interaction with. Unfortunately from that from the angle we can't see if the passenger made physical contact with the employee as he walked close by.
So the evidence shows that he had already checked-in, which would make it very possible that he was in the check-in area prior. And his demeanor and actions indicates a person that was already upset. How that came to be is the an important question, because he certainly looked to be instigating in the clip we see. The actions of those around him also make you wonder. Very strange that no one came to his aid like you would expect in a random situation. Maybe he was letting everyone around know what his feelings were. Too bad we don't have audio.
There's no defense for physically pushing a customer. But that does not mean that customers should be able to do and say whatever they please without being responsible in part with the repercussions. I've been on the receiving end of those, and it's very hurtful. You naturally want to get back at them, but you can't. It's really sad how these despicable passengers are being treated like they are angels. This passenger was clearly no angel. Don't give him that level of sympathy. Both groups were very wrong.
Jun 14, 2017, 2:44 pm
#55
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The master brand narrative about UA is hardening. The brand has begun to stand, first and foremost, for various forms of brutality. (Volvo: safety. Tiffany: luxury. United: brutality.) Very hard thing to unwind.
The 25th or 30th time United robo-issues a statement saying, "The conduct shown here does not reflect our values or our commitment to treat all of our customers with respect and dignity," it becomes a joke.
The organization clearly has no mechanism for dealing authentically with this kind of thing, which runs disturbingly deep on the inside.
Cartel members protected by lack of competition from the consequences of brutal policies and actions. See: telecoms, energy, banks.
The organization clearly has no mechanism for dealing authentically with this kind of thing, which runs disturbingly deep on the inside.
Cartel members protected by lack of competition from the consequences of brutal policies and actions. See: telecoms, energy, banks.
Jun 14, 2017, 2:44 pm
#56
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However UA wasn't the airline I was talking about that has a known problem up top. The evidence points to UA's problem being a few down low.
Do you think I wrote those details without seeing the whole video? Come on.
If you think that was the beginning, I'm going to challenge you to provide the evidence that it is. And think about it. Do you trust the media to provide the whole story these days? Not a chance.
I'll provide the evidence that it wasn't. The video shows him entering the check-in area, and he appears to indeed have the boarding pass that was a stated point of contention. When he enters the field of view, he certainly appears to be upset, and there's a verbal exchange with the UA employees. One employee takes what is apparently his boarding pass to the desk. But he's definitely not done when he talks to the employee that he has the physical interaction with. Unfortunately from that from the angle we can't see if the passenger made physical contact with the employee as he walked close by.
So the evidence shows that he had already checked-in, which would make it very possible that he was in the check-in area prior. And his demeanor and actions indicates a person that was already upset. How that came to be is the an important question, because he certainly looked to be instigating in the clip we see. The actions of those around him also make you wonder. Very strange that no one came to his aid like you would expect in a random situation. Maybe he was letting everyone around know what his feelings were. Too bad we don't have audio.
There's no defense for physically pushing a customer. But that does not mean that customers should be able to do and say whatever they please without being responsible in part with the repercussions. I've been on the receiving end of those, and it's very hurtful. You naturally want to get back at them, but you can't. It's really sad how these despicable passengers are being treated like they are angels. This passenger was clearly no angel. Don't give him that level of sympathy. Both groups were very wrong.
Do you think I wrote those details without seeing the whole video? Come on.
If you think that was the beginning, I'm going to challenge you to provide the evidence that it is. And think about it. Do you trust the media to provide the whole story these days? Not a chance.
I'll provide the evidence that it wasn't. The video shows him entering the check-in area, and he appears to indeed have the boarding pass that was a stated point of contention. When he enters the field of view, he certainly appears to be upset, and there's a verbal exchange with the UA employees. One employee takes what is apparently his boarding pass to the desk. But he's definitely not done when he talks to the employee that he has the physical interaction with. Unfortunately from that from the angle we can't see if the passenger made physical contact with the employee as he walked close by.
So the evidence shows that he had already checked-in, which would make it very possible that he was in the check-in area prior. And his demeanor and actions indicates a person that was already upset. How that came to be is the an important question, because he certainly looked to be instigating in the clip we see. The actions of those around him also make you wonder. Very strange that no one came to his aid like you would expect in a random situation. Maybe he was letting everyone around know what his feelings were. Too bad we don't have audio.
There's no defense for physically pushing a customer. But that does not mean that customers should be able to do and say whatever they please without being responsible in part with the repercussions. I've been on the receiving end of those, and it's very hurtful. You naturally want to get back at them, but you can't. It's really sad how these despicable passengers are being treated like they are angels. This passenger was clearly no angel. Don't give him that level of sympathy. Both groups were very wrong.
Jun 14, 2017, 2:50 pm
#57
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The encounter began when Tigner received a boarding pass that was illegible. He made “numerous attempts” to ask for a reprinted pass, but United agents denied him one, according to the lawsuit.
He was told to continue on to the security checkpoint, where Transportation Security Administration authorities refused to let Tigner enter because of his poorly printed pass.
So Tigner went back to the United ticketing area and tried once more to get a new ticket, the lawsuit states. Two United employees, Alejandro Anastasia and Ianthe Phillips-Allred, allegedly refused to help Tigner, laughing and cursing at him, the lawsuit states.
He was told to continue on to the security checkpoint, where Transportation Security Administration authorities refused to let Tigner enter because of his poorly printed pass.
So Tigner went back to the United ticketing area and tried once more to get a new ticket, the lawsuit states. Two United employees, Alejandro Anastasia and Ianthe Phillips-Allred, allegedly refused to help Tigner, laughing and cursing at him, the lawsuit states.
Last edited by notquiteaff; Jun 14, 2017 at 2:57 pm
Jun 14, 2017, 3:04 pm
#58
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We honestly have mo way of knowing what was said.
There was a pax on a DL flight leaving JFK I was on 3 years ago who was angry he didn’t get his coat hung up, or a pre-departure water. This is after the man borded the plane and was frustrated the overhead above his seat was filled. Obviously the male FA was being passive aggressive, then when he again asked for his beverage, he leaned to his seat mate (who the guy didn’t know), and called the FA, who happened to be gay, a disparaging homophobic remark. I could hear it from the row behind me.
Good thing this other pax felt so inclined to almost immediately get up up and tell the lead female FA what had just happened. When she came back, this moron could have seemed more charming and gentile. If “the video” had started here, nobody would have thought this man could have possibly said something like that, much less been so rude. Except he had made the mistake of uttering this remark to somebody he didn’t know, and loudly enough for those around him to hear. He was literally an angel to the female FA but then his seat mate straight up said “he’s a liar and I don’t feel comfortable with him in the flight”. The guy then started to try and apologize to the man “if he had offended him in any way”, again in an angelic tone.
Long story short, they booted him off the flight. Then the “real” man came out, who again shouted the slur from the jetway. The male FA was close to tears, I could tell, as the whole F cabin clapped for him.
There was a pax on a DL flight leaving JFK I was on 3 years ago who was angry he didn’t get his coat hung up, or a pre-departure water. This is after the man borded the plane and was frustrated the overhead above his seat was filled. Obviously the male FA was being passive aggressive, then when he again asked for his beverage, he leaned to his seat mate (who the guy didn’t know), and called the FA, who happened to be gay, a disparaging homophobic remark. I could hear it from the row behind me.
Good thing this other pax felt so inclined to almost immediately get up up and tell the lead female FA what had just happened. When she came back, this moron could have seemed more charming and gentile. If “the video” had started here, nobody would have thought this man could have possibly said something like that, much less been so rude. Except he had made the mistake of uttering this remark to somebody he didn’t know, and loudly enough for those around him to hear. He was literally an angel to the female FA but then his seat mate straight up said “he’s a liar and I don’t feel comfortable with him in the flight”. The guy then started to try and apologize to the man “if he had offended him in any way”, again in an angelic tone.
Long story short, they booted him off the flight. Then the “real” man came out, who again shouted the slur from the jetway. The male FA was close to tears, I could tell, as the whole F cabin clapped for him.
Jun 14, 2017, 3:18 pm
#59
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From https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.41f6c31c4f3b
No matter what happened, though, I see no justification for an employee to ever touch or push a customer other than in self defense. And I don't see that in the video.
No matter what happened, though, I see no justification for an employee to ever touch or push a customer other than in self defense. And I don't see that in the video.
Jun 14, 2017, 3:24 pm
#60
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Do people working the check-in area receive any sort of rudimentary medical training? I'm trying to come up with a scenario where the reaction of the other UA employees isn't that awful (I like to try and think the best of people, and while there's obviously no 'best' for the pusher, there may be hope for the others...) and the best I can come up with is that they didn't know what to do and didn't want to interfere. Is it possible they called security to check on the man, as it looks like security showed up pretty soon after? What is official UA policy for this sort of thing?