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Past incident with elderly United passenger in Houston leads to lawsuit

Past incident with elderly United passenger in Houston leads to lawsuit

Old Jun 14, 2017, 5:58 pm
  #76  
 
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Originally Posted by wolf72
Until you get rid of the union, nothing will change.
I continue to believe that blaming the unions diverts the discussion from the real issue of bad culture throughout UA. Lufthansa has unions, some of the strongest in the world, yet they provide fine service overall. Southwest has a union, and they provide GREAT service. Delta has a union and provide acceptable customer service. What is different about UA? It is not that they have a union, it is that they have a legacy of putting customers last. Even Oscar, who I really like, showed that employees come before customers when he first reacted to the Dao incident. It was not until he was shamed into apologizing that he begrudgingly said customers deserve better.

Unions are a red herring issue. The real issue, a bad culture for customer service, is far more intractable IMHO.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 6:09 pm
  #77  
 
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Originally Posted by blueman2
I continue to believe that blaming the unions diverts the discussion from the real issue of bad culture throughout UA. Lufthansa has unions, some of the strongest in the world, yet they provide fine service overall. Southwest has a union, and they provide GREAT service. Delta has a union and provide acceptable customer service. What is different about UA? It is not that they have a union, it is that they have a legacy of putting customers last. Even Oscar, who I really like, showed that employees come before customers when he first reacted to the Dao incident. It was not until he was shamed into apologizing that he begrudgingly said customers deserve better.

Unions are a red herring issue. The real issue, a bad culture for customer service, is far more intractable IMHO.
Agree with we everything you've wrote, except the comments about Oscar.

The intent of his original message was to convey the facts in a blunt and transparent way, which he did. Dao was disruptive, but Oscar got caught being too candid with his employees, even if what he was saying was factual (i.e. it passed the legal team). Unfortunately a perfect storm of sorts hit, and he was forced to publicalpy apologize, which by the way, I thought he did in a gracious, humble, and forward-looking way. That's not easy to pull off all at once.

And let us not forget he is not only was first leader of United in decades who showed, and received back, real compassion and respect from his front line, but also brought together two disparate factions (sCO/sUA) and sold them on a collective destiny in which they are compensated fairly, and can genuinely be proud of. That was no easy feat.

Having your employees come explicitly second (which it seems is a vein popping up here on FT), and/or making the union the enemy of management then implicitly makes the union's representation an enemy of management. This results in employees not feeling motivated, enthusiastic, or respected, leading them to carry resentment/animus towards management and the company, and sometimes regrettably, turning their frustrations inwards towards the customer. Case study in the matter? The UAL of the 2000s or Smisek - treat employees with contempt and a take it or leave (literally) attitude and the results are predictable.

Last edited by tuolumne; Jun 14, 2017 at 6:25 pm
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 6:16 pm
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by blueman2
I continue to believe that blaming the unions diverts the discussion from the real issue of bad culture throughout UA. Lufthansa has unions, some of the strongest in the world, yet they provide fine service overall. . .

Unions are a red herring issue. The real issue, a bad culture for customer service, is far more intractable IMHO.

Not a complete red herring. It's the combination of the two: union employees who can't be fired and a corporate culture that designates customers as enemies. That's what sets United apart.

The bad publicity will force them to suppress the very worst behavior. But as long as United keeps its oligopoly power, the day-to-day nastiness will not change.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 6:18 pm
  #79  
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Originally Posted by blueman2
Delta has a union and provide acceptable customer service.
Delta's only union is one of the labor groups that least interacts face to face with passengers. DL checkin/gate/flight attendants are non-union.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 6:35 pm
  #80  
 
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Originally Posted by BearX220
My UA experience with conflict resolution 2011-16 was that their opening bid was to offer nothing, deny everything, flat stonewall me, even when I was legally entitled to certain things. They could only be shamed into coughing up the minimum under constant pressure or (I found) with a DOT complaint.
I think UA gets that from The Rainmaker :

"On seven prior occasions we have denied your claim in writing. We now deny it for the eighth and final time. You must be stupid, stupid, stupid. Sincerely...Oscar, CEO
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 8:08 pm
  #81  
 
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Feel sorry for the good workers at UA that have had to work in what appears to be a corrosive corporate environment. Don't know how they do it. Major kudos to the ones that have ignored and risen above the carrier's corporate values.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 9:22 pm
  #82  
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Just saw that news clip.

It is crazy that the employee did that and UA did not do anything for the passenger all this time (even with the criminal case) and all these other employees did nothing. It is like a pack of wolves bullying a small animal. This is really really sad for UA and for the character of these employees - and I think it is worse than the Dao incident.

When children are way out of line, you wonder what their parents teach them. When employees are way out of line, you wonder how the company trains them.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 10:10 pm
  #83  
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Originally Posted by FlyngSvyr
I am being serious. Maybe its because I am very proactive & take care of myself & anticipate any problems that may arise. I guess in that sense I am self loading freight. Flyertalk (the one before this UA bashing craze) taught me how to take care of myself within the UA system & I have done well.

The few minor issues I have had, I just roll with it and end up on the other side OK. Maybe there will be a day when I am seeing RED & am truly wronged by someone working for UA. If it happens, I will be sure to post on FT so someone can learn from it and others can offer feedback on how to avoid in the future. I just won't come on here to "pile on" with stories about quitting UA 5 years ago for some real or perceived indignation. I don't see how that is productive to the FT mission.

All this being said, I am not defending UA for this incident. The video evidence it pretty clear & this the employee needed to be charged (he was) & fired (probably was).

Many of the other comments on these type of threads are just people projecting their own anti UA biases onto the incident. I am pretty sure that UA does not promote physically assaulting their passengers. Insisting that they do and it is "cultural" is a reach.
So, the Dr.Dao incident was one off and so was the initial response from the CEO blaming the passenger and not his staff, the working culture within the organization as being anti-consumer, nor the unions who hired the employees nor the fact he failed as a CEO in ensuring clear cut guidelines to all staff to reflect HIS values and his expectations as CEO?

Right. Whatever.
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Old Jun 14, 2017, 10:25 pm
  #84  
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Originally Posted by BearX220
What kind of company insists on you literally making a federal case out of things before it will even consider doing the right thing?)
T-mobile. They were trying to hold a phone number hostage (transfer from my dying employer to a personal account--yes, money was owed but not by me) until I sicced the regulators on them.
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Old Jun 15, 2017, 6:53 am
  #85  
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Originally Posted by porciuscato
Not a complete red herring. It's the combination of the two: union employees who can't be fired and a corporate culture that designates customers as enemies. That's what sets United apart.

The bad publicity will force them to suppress the very worst behavior. But as long as United keeps its oligopoly power, the day-to-day nastiness will not change.
I hesitate to wade into this territory, but I feel compelled.

It is a myth that Union employees cannot be fired. I have been a Union member, as well as a manager of Union employees. There are specific steps that management must follow to terminate a Union employee. If those steps are followed, it is bullet proof.

The stories that surface about having to hire back a Union member "wrongly terminated" is in the vast majority of the time a failure of management to follow the rules. Lack of documentation or not treating same situations the same way are the usual culprits.

The blame lies with leadership. Customers are not the enemy.
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Old Jun 15, 2017, 10:11 am
  #86  
 
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I used to be happy to say I flew UA and was a high level elite; people would typically comment on how it must be nice getting upgrades... nowadays when I say I am a UA flyer, people say things more like hope you don't get beat up.

Sigh...

I do wonder given this is in IAH, it's more a CO crew I presume; and from a training perspective, what is the procedure for a customer lying on the floor like that. I'm not trying to have a UA/CO debate here, just curious if this were in DEN or ORD where pre-merger UA culture is stronger.
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Old Jun 15, 2017, 12:30 pm
  #87  
 
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Originally Posted by wolf72
So, the Dr.Dao incident was one off and so was the initial response from the CEO blaming the passenger and not his staff, the working culture within the organization as being anti-consumer, nor the unions who hired the employees
Right. Whatever.

Unions dont hire, mgmt does. More false smoke and mirrors. Very little of what you've posted over the past few months on this is remotely accurate
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Old Jun 15, 2017, 12:40 pm
  #88  
 
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Originally Posted by fastair
Unions dont hire, mgmt does. More false smoke and mirrors. Very little of what you've posted over the past few months on this is remotely accurate
+1.

Management sets policies, Management provides adequate tools and amenities to provide good service (or fails to do so), management sets the tone, and management addresses issues with employees who fail to perform.

IMHO over many years with United, with the notable exception of the SFH, when the tools and support for good service are provided to UA employees they do a good job. OTOH, when Management leaves employees - either GAs or FAs in situations when, due to the lack of adequate tools, or due to poor product, or bad operations - where they face the brunt of customer anger at United, they often do not respond well.

It is notable that this happened in 2015, in the middle of dear leader's glorious reign....
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Old Jun 15, 2017, 1:29 pm
  #89  
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While UA certainly has a few "Hot Heads" working for them I am NOT going to drop out of the program to prove a point. TOO much invested to allow a few punks to mess with my flying experience. Once UA gets a belly full of paying all these stupid lawsuits, perhaps then the supervisors will get off their butts and kick some A$$, emphasizing professionalism. That would of course mean that they need to get out front and observe what their employees are doing, and not let a pax remain unconscious, on the lobby floor, for several minutes while the entire gang just looked on, and not even having the decency to dial 911. The crux of problem is the lazy/complacent supervisors who are hiding in the break rooms, so as to not have to deal face to face with their customers.
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Old Jun 27, 2017, 3:35 pm
  #90  
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Houston news is reporting that UA threatened to take away the man's mileage account and ban him from flying UA if he sued...

How did a claims official look at video and conclude that was the appropriate response? Unreal
​​​​​
Mr. Tigner reached out to Nancy Tibbetts, senior claims representative [at United] and he was met with a threat. She told Mr. Tigner that if he filed a lawsuit, he would be banned from ever flying United Airlines again and would lose all of his frequent flyer miles...
Link: http://www.click2houston.com/news/ho...-deter-lawsuit
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