Creating a Premium Brand -- What "is" United?
May 17, 2017, 8:20 pm
#46
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
If you fly from/to AMS you'll typically see the 330 (and in fact I've yet to be on a DL 767 though that will change next month). Comparing the 330 on DL vs anything UA offers currently is a clear DL win. I will see about the 767.
Now, even if the 767 isn't as good..you're doing what you accuse others of doing..you're comparing UA to the worst of DL's offering rather than the totality of it.
Let's ignore both the new Polaris and the "next gen" D1 for now and focus on what you would reasonably expect to get flying both airlines. I'd say in hard product DL is on average ahead and by some distance. Soft product I'll call it a tie. Both have their good and bad moments in that regard.
I'd also like to add that I've used both UA Economy Plus and Delta's Comfort Plus and I find the DL product to be better as well in that class.
I think UA isn't as bad as people say and that's why I will sometimes stick up for them, but DL is based on my experiences ahead by a bit. It's not a huge dramatic gap but there is a gap.
Now whether you would call either one of them premium given the less than stellar soft skills of a lot of the FAs on *all* U.S. carriers...that's a different debate.
Now, even if the 767 isn't as good..you're doing what you accuse others of doing..you're comparing UA to the worst of DL's offering rather than the totality of it.
Let's ignore both the new Polaris and the "next gen" D1 for now and focus on what you would reasonably expect to get flying both airlines. I'd say in hard product DL is on average ahead and by some distance. Soft product I'll call it a tie. Both have their good and bad moments in that regard.
I'd also like to add that I've used both UA Economy Plus and Delta's Comfort Plus and I find the DL product to be better as well in that class.
I think UA isn't as bad as people say and that's why I will sometimes stick up for them, but DL is based on my experiences ahead by a bit. It's not a huge dramatic gap but there is a gap.
Now whether you would call either one of them premium given the less than stellar soft skills of a lot of the FAs on *all* U.S. carriers...that's a different debate.
I also think the Delta direct Aisle access seats on the A330/772ER/LR/747s blows away either the non-direct aisle access seats on the sUA or sCO birds. They are just bigger and direct Aisle access.
As to the 767 fleet with direct Aisle vantage? Will I would prefer the sCO seat in the bulkhead on the 772 to it. But I'll take the Delta 767 Vantage seat over either the shorter sCO seat on the 767 or the sUA seat which is very narrow and has no storage space. Put another way IMHE:
new DL Vantage XL+ (on the A359) > Polaris (on the UA 77W) = Delta A330/772/747 > sCO seat (on the 772 > sCO seat (on the 787) > Delta Vantage (on the 763) > UA sUA seat (other than on the upper deck of the 747) > sCO seat on the 763.
The bottom line is that United is not winning any award for having "premium seating" vs Delta.
And on the soft product, the new Polaris Bedding is nice, but then so is the Delta Westin Bedding. On Domestic flights in F on Delta you get a decent blanket and pillow, on UA you get zippo (or a crappy blanket, if you ask). Food wise, Delta is just slightly better, but in Wine United is ultra cheapo. No way you find $30+ bottles of wine on UA (they seem to cater at the $14-15-16/bottle point in "Polaris") while DeltaOne will have decent wines.
I also agree on the Ailessi serving stuff on Delta being much nicer. United looks like they stole their dishes and silverware from a Libby's cafeteria in Houston.
May 17, 2017, 8:28 pm
#47
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,967
They can't even offer the cheapest amenity - "friendly" - right.
I think the company has just gotten too big for its own good and many employees are about what's in it for them now that the company is profitable. Even in premium cabin domestic and international, the service is very inconsistent. Until the workforce truly cares about their customers, we are going nowhere.
May 17, 2017, 8:48 pm
#48
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
I love how nearly every thread seems turns into a comparison agains Delta. Yeah, Delta has some nice branding and a good product, but that doesn't have much to do with United's brand.
I also have Delta status and read the Delta forum.
I also have Delta status and read the Delta forum.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 17, 2017 at 11:09 pm Reason: Discuss the issues, not the poster(s)
May 17, 2017, 9:10 pm
#49
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
I think most would agree that in 2011 the "bones" of United (hub location, fleet, installed hard product, special offerings like PS/E+, Mileage Program) was far better than what Delta had. United had the inside shot at being the very best US airline, and the financial projections were that it would outperform.
Well, after 5 years of Jeff's management approach (with things like going 3-4-3 in E+ on the 77W, and BE on all fares, they appear to be using the same old playbook) people compare United to Delta because, well, Delta became what United should have been. A growing airline, that is the go to business carrier, with increasing presence in major business markets, inventive creative products, a good vibe, happy employees, good customer service, and the best overall hard and soft product. [Note, I did not say FFP...]
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 17, 2017 at 11:10 pm Reason: Quote updated to reflect Moderator edit; Discuss the issues, not the poster(s)
May 17, 2017, 11:15 pm
#50
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast
Programs: AA CONCIERGE KEY & 1MM, HILTON DIAMOND
Posts: 11,970
I'm wondering the same thing. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say DL only cares about the perception, so they can rip you off. Let's look at some facts.
You're giving credit to DL for a future product that we know a lot about, but aren't giving any credit to Polaris? DL's will have a door that could be a gimmick. It won't block anybody's view when walking down the aisle. Good business seats don't need a door for good privacy. It's a known seat (Vantage XL) that is only subjectively better than others and can only be used to it's full potential on the 777 and A350 - it gets progressively tighter on smaller types (and you won't see it on the 767--the majority of DL's widebody fleet). It's also with a carrier that is known to buy off-the-shelf seats with cheap furnishings and uncomfortable leather seat covers (no "premium" carrier would touch that).
Have you tried the Alessi stuff? Shiny, but less practical. Smaller sizes, sharp edges on the glasses, and tougher to keep food on the plates. More hype to get you to pay more for less.
UA is/has been a U.S. leader in:
Polaris business class experience (seats, lounges, and soft product)
lie-flat business seats
economy plus
international wifi
free onboard entertainment
best general first class meal windows
retaining high J/Y+ seat configurations
retaining the best award redemption (with a chart too)
retaining creature comforts like mid-cabin lavs on 739s
channel 9
-and many more
They are. Been that way for a couple years now, I believe, with the A330s being the last.
The Vantage seat on their 767s, which is the majority of their widebody fleet, is far from private. It's an all-aisle-access seat, but other than that is poor in every other regard. That seat isn't worth a high price.
Lucky you then. 1 to 1. Tie game.
You're giving credit to DL for a future product that we know a lot about, but aren't giving any credit to Polaris? DL's will have a door that could be a gimmick. It won't block anybody's view when walking down the aisle. Good business seats don't need a door for good privacy. It's a known seat (Vantage XL) that is only subjectively better than others and can only be used to it's full potential on the 777 and A350 - it gets progressively tighter on smaller types (and you won't see it on the 767--the majority of DL's widebody fleet). It's also with a carrier that is known to buy off-the-shelf seats with cheap furnishings and uncomfortable leather seat covers (no "premium" carrier would touch that).
Have you tried the Alessi stuff? Shiny, but less practical. Smaller sizes, sharp edges on the glasses, and tougher to keep food on the plates. More hype to get you to pay more for less.
UA is/has been a U.S. leader in:
Polaris business class experience (seats, lounges, and soft product)
lie-flat business seats
economy plus
international wifi
free onboard entertainment
best general first class meal windows
retaining high J/Y+ seat configurations
retaining the best award redemption (with a chart too)
retaining creature comforts like mid-cabin lavs on 739s
channel 9
-and many more
They are. Been that way for a couple years now, I believe, with the A330s being the last.
The Vantage seat on their 767s, which is the majority of their widebody fleet, is far from private. It's an all-aisle-access seat, but other than that is poor in every other regard. That seat isn't worth a high price.
Lucky you then. 1 to 1. Tie game.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 17, 2017 at 11:20 pm Reason: Discuss the issues, not the poster(s)
May 17, 2017, 11:51 pm
#51
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: WN, AA, UA, DL
Posts: 1,313
I'm not sure where you get the UA being a leader in free inflight entertainment either. Go fly a 738/739 with DirecTV in Y and tell me if it's free even though every single DL and AA plane offers free streaming and on almost all DL 737/757/A320/A321 + the longhaul fleet they have free AVOD built into the seats.
I made no specific comparison about DL's 767 seat to any other seat. I only commented on the seat itself and countered your claim that DL "typically offers direct aisle access with a lot of privacy". If your definition of private is being able to see pretty much everything in the cabin, then it's accurate. If your minimum definition of "lots of privacy" is a reverse herringbone or Polaris, then it's not an accurate depiction of DL's fleet.
May 18, 2017, 8:53 am
#52
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
When I joined FT in 2008, Delta was a sad excuse of an airline, with product, network, and service that was vastly inferior to what United then offered.
I think most would agree that in 2011 the "bones" of United (hub location, fleet, installed hard product, special offerings like PS/E+, Mileage Program) was far better than what Delta had. United had the inside shot at being the very best US airline, and the financial projections were that it would outperform.
Well, after 5 years of Jeff's management approach (with things like going 3-4-3 in E+ on the 77W, and BE on all fares, they appear to be using the same old playbook) people compare United to Delta because, well, Delta became what United should have been. A growing airline, that is the go to business carrier, with increasing presence in major business markets, inventive creative products, a good vibe, happy employees, good customer service, and the best overall hard and soft product. [Note, I did not say FFP...]
I think most would agree that in 2011 the "bones" of United (hub location, fleet, installed hard product, special offerings like PS/E+, Mileage Program) was far better than what Delta had. United had the inside shot at being the very best US airline, and the financial projections were that it would outperform.
Well, after 5 years of Jeff's management approach (with things like going 3-4-3 in E+ on the 77W, and BE on all fares, they appear to be using the same old playbook) people compare United to Delta because, well, Delta became what United should have been. A growing airline, that is the go to business carrier, with increasing presence in major business markets, inventive creative products, a good vibe, happy employees, good customer service, and the best overall hard and soft product. [Note, I did not say FFP...]
Setting aside the liberties taken with some facts, you've still highlighted several key issues with brands. One, perception and positioning can be cyclical with most brands rising (and falling) over time. More critically, successful brands are more about emotional connections, not just tangible advantages in the products being offered.
While the extensive commentary on Delta is indicative of the strong connection the brand has made with certain market segments, Delta's brand shouldn't have an influence on United's brand, or lack thereof. Branding of commodities is not about positioning relative to competitors.
Does United need to improve it's brand? Absolutely. I think there are some strong branding and product changes that are going in the right direction. Based on the discussion thus far, I'm honestly not sure what United could (reasonably) do to create more evangelists for its brand. Since following Delta is routinely derided, I remain stumped as how comparisons to Delta's product are ultimately relevant to United's brand.
May 18, 2017, 11:13 pm
#53
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
I think some of your comments validate a point I was trying to make. Said without unnecessary obfuscation, United clearly has a brand perception issue if some of United's most loyal customers (self-identified) are more enthusiastic about Delta.
Setting aside the liberties taken with some facts, you've still highlighted several key issues with brands. One, perception and positioning can be cyclical with most brands rising (and falling) over time. More critically, successful brands are more about emotional connections, not just tangible advantages in the products being offered.
While the extensive commentary on Delta is indicative of the strong connection the brand has made with certain market segments, Delta's brand shouldn't have an influence on United's brand, or lack thereof. Branding of commodities is not about positioning relative to competitors.
Does United need to improve it's brand? Absolutely. I think there are some strong branding and product changes that are going in the right direction. Based on the discussion thus far, I'm honestly not sure what United could (reasonably) do to create more evangelists for its brand. Since following Delta is routinely derided, I remain stumped as how comparisons to Delta's product are ultimately relevant to United's brand.
Setting aside the liberties taken with some facts, you've still highlighted several key issues with brands. One, perception and positioning can be cyclical with most brands rising (and falling) over time. More critically, successful brands are more about emotional connections, not just tangible advantages in the products being offered.
While the extensive commentary on Delta is indicative of the strong connection the brand has made with certain market segments, Delta's brand shouldn't have an influence on United's brand, or lack thereof. Branding of commodities is not about positioning relative to competitors.
Does United need to improve it's brand? Absolutely. I think there are some strong branding and product changes that are going in the right direction. Based on the discussion thus far, I'm honestly not sure what United could (reasonably) do to create more evangelists for its brand. Since following Delta is routinely derided, I remain stumped as how comparisons to Delta's product are ultimately relevant to United's brand.
A common exercise is to ask people what they think of when they hear the brand. The question is:
What do you think of when you think of United Airlines? Or What does United Airlines represent to you?
I can 100% guarantee that most people will give more favorable answers for delta than for United at this point.
Unless United does something that will associate good words/thoughts/images with its "Brand" it will continue to be the bottom of the pit in its brand. 3-4-3 in E+ on the 777 (with seats .6" narrower than on a 737), or trying to upcharge its elites $15+ each way to use their elite benefits and avoid BE on every flight, or dishes and flat wear in J/F that look like someone stole them from a Libby's cafeteria, or $15 wines in J, will not help.
Last edited by spin88; May 18, 2017 at 11:45 pm
May 19, 2017, 8:23 am
#54
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
Final thought: The linkage between Delta and United's brands remains an unanswered question. Without explaining how the two are interrelated, it seems logical for comparisons between Delta and United to be summarily ignored.
May 19, 2017, 8:38 am
#55
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Colorado
Programs: UA Gold (.85 MM), HH Diamond, SPG Platinum (LT Gold), Hertz PC, National EE
Posts: 5,656
May 19, 2017, 9:15 am
#56
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,592
UA is/has been a U.S. leader in:
Polaris business class experience (seats, lounges, and soft product)
lie-flat business seats
economy plus
international wifi
free onboard entertainment
best general first class meal windows
retaining high J/Y+ seat configurations
retaining the best award redemption (with a chart too)
retaining creature comforts like mid-cabin lavs on 739s
channel 9
-and many more
May 19, 2017, 9:48 am
#57
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast
Programs: AA CONCIERGE KEY & 1MM, HILTON DIAMOND
Posts: 11,970
May 19, 2017, 10:45 am
#58
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pasadena, California
Programs: UA 1K, 1MM
Posts: 10,412
Ditto! 
There are still UA aircraft out there with channel 9?! 
I honestly can't recall the last time I was on an airplane that provided channel 9.
So many little things that United has done and could do again ... I had completely forgotten about the gold boarding card stock until I read this thread.
I honestly can't recall the last time I was on an airplane that provided channel 9.So many little things that United has done and could do again ... I had completely forgotten about the gold boarding card stock until I read this thread.
May 19, 2017, 12:15 pm
#59
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
Initial thought: "...if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I've got spare time."
Final thought: The linkage between Delta and United's brands remains an unanswered question. Without explaining how the two are interrelated, it seems logical for comparisons between Delta and United to be summarily ignored.
Final thought: The linkage between Delta and United's brands remains an unanswered question. Without explaining how the two are interrelated, it seems logical for comparisons between Delta and United to be summarily ignored.
If a discussion considering a brand quickly turns into unfavorable comparisons vs rival brands, then that's not coincidental or a good sign. The question of "how can we be better than Delta?" probably should be on minds in Chicago.
That starts with an admission to yourself that you *aren't* as good as the competition and need to do something to catch up. I don't think United has ever been a premium brand - I think it was a solid household brand in the mold of Sears or Campbell's Soup. It's not gonna be a revelation but you can rely on it. United has some homework to do to get back to that.
And it starts with the workforce more than anything else. Seats, lounges and all that matter but they're all for naught if your staff isn't motivated to be the best and capable of delivering it.
May 19, 2017, 1:21 pm
#60
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: WN, AA, UA, DL
Posts: 1,313
My list was qualified as "is/has been". And since the number of aircraft has been stable to slightly increasing, your response isn't correct. I don't believe you have a reason to dispute the list.
Last edited by minnyfly; May 19, 2017 at 5:14 pm Reason: revised