Last edit by: WineCountryUA
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Lets have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.
The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
What facts do we know?
- UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
- After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
- United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
- After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
- One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
- The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
- After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
- United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines the unit that operated Flight 3411 decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a downline connection.
United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017
Videos
- Passenger one row behind and on the aisle footage BEFORE man was dragged off https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707
- Videos of man being removed https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1491983214 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAZEk6nsNE
- Video of man re-entering plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEQDWpYbZA (link dead)
Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
- On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
- We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
- He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
- Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
- Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
Its never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix whats broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. Well communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
Its never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix whats broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. Well communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
Thats why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things dont go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways were going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust youve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
Thats why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things dont go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways were going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust youve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
- Chicago Aviation Department said on the Monday afternoon after the incident that the officer who had dragged the passenger off the plane had been placed on leave pending an investigation. Spokesperson Karen Pride said in an email that "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
- 4/12/17: Two more Chicago Aviation officers involved are suspended
- Muoz does ABC interview, announcing United will no longer use law enforcement to remove passengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90jSUe_vdhM
- United announces policy change that crews traveling on their aircraft must be booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
- United releases multiple changes in overbooking / denied boarding policies "We are making changes to ensure that we always put customers first" (http://newsroom.united.com/2017-04-2...mer-Experience) released 27 April 2017
- Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
- Response to Senate Commerce Committee questions - 1 May 2017
- United Airlines PR Boss to Step Down
- James Long, one of several officers involved in removing David Dao from the April 9, 2017, flight to make room for airline employees, filed suit on Tuesday against United, Chicagos Department of Aviation and its commissioner, Ginger Evans. The lawsuit, filed in the circuit court of Cook County, Illinois, alleges he was not properly trained on how to use force.
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines
Poll link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KP68GYG
Results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
Reference MaterialResults link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.
If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspxIf your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}
#5746
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Austin, TX
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Posts: 1,624
Only the rent-a-goons were that dense.
If you want to truly understand what happened, watch the reactions of the other passengers. They were there. They experienced what happened before. They were outraged. Compare that to other videos of passengers being removed from planes. In those cases the other passengers are cheering, clapping, or otherwise indicating their support of LEO. Not screaming 'Oh My God! What are you doing?'.
The other passengers were there, they indicated their support of the good doctor. That's the telling evidence here.
#5747
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My reaction to the first video is that the "narrator" seems extremely out of control. I wonder whether he works as a non-police security "officer" at ORD, namely a Chicago Aviation Security Officer. I find it odd for someone to react so strongly to a news event that wasn't personally witnessed unless there's some connection to one of the parties that were involved.
#5748
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
Emotions are high. And I recognize that hyperbole is fun, but frankly I expect better from someone with 10,000+ posts on FT. It's shameful to libel tens of thousands of employees when it is patently obvious from reading this forum that there are many UA staff who do exemplary work. Even Oscar Munoz himself was highly regarded by customers until this single, devastating incident. Most agreed that he was winding down the tone-deaf, penny-pinching, metrics-at-all-costs approach of his predecessor.
It's one thing to be convinced that Munoz isn't up to the task. But to smear the entire workforce is totally uncalled for.
It's one thing to be convinced that Munoz isn't up to the task. But to smear the entire workforce is totally uncalled for.
#5749
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 146
My reaction to the first video is that the "narrator" seems extremely out of control. I wonder whether he works as a non-police security "officer" at ORD, namely a Chicago Aviation Security Officer. I find it odd for someone to react so strongly to a news event that wasn't personally witnessed unless there's some connection to one of the parties that were involved.
#5750
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SFO South Bay
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 3,052
Many (most?) people here on this thread and across the country disagree with the position that this person was the root cause of this incident due to his selfishness. BUT, I respect and appreciate your posts because they show the potential logic behind how United got into this mess. Oscar and the United PR team initially said pretty much exactly what you are saying. They have since done a 180 on this position, but your posts highlight their (at least initial) thinking which is helpful for us to understand.
#5751
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Posts: 100,334
Better yet, don't drag a ticketed passenger off the plane without cause and without being legally entitled to do so. [Chicago Aviation Security Officers don't have the authority to arrest people.]
#5752
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 80
Many (most?) people here on this thread and across the country disagree with the position that this person was the root cause of this incident due to his selfishness. BUT, I respect and appreciate your posts because they show the potential logic behind how United got into this mess. Oscar and the United PR team initially said pretty much exactly what you are saying. They have since done a 180 on this position, but your posts highlight their (at least initial) thinking which is helpful for us to understand.
#5753
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,407
On a dif (non-flying) BB I frequent, they're blaming the doc & saying he should have followed law enforcement orders, that it's things like this that illustrate the break-down in society, that they wouldn't have liked getting off the plane, but once you're told to do something by LE you should do it. Oh, and that the doc could have complained afterward/painted UA in a bad light.
I don't even know where to start to respond to that! Ideas?
Cheers.
I don't even know where to start to respond to that! Ideas?
Cheers.
As a random example, many LEOs have ordered people not to film them, but unless the filmers are creating a safety issue or interfering with police business, they almost always have the right to film and courts have upheld that right. Should people be following these illegitimate LEO orders?
#5754
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 812
Here's an interesting view on what happened at United and the lessons we can learn from it for our society:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...#disqus_thread
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...#disqus_thread
The lesson is simple but profound. Societies, like airlines, are far better off relying on incentives and voluntary transactions than on diktat and coercion.
To understand how societies can be organized differently, ask yourself: Who picks up the garbage? That question was answered one way in the Soviet Union and Cuba, another way in the U.S. and Western Europe.
<snip>
In modern societies (as opposed to traditional ones), the garbage gets picked up for one of two reasons. Either the state assigns someone to do it and punishes them if they don’t do it or don’t do it well. Or labor markets let people choose the job voluntarily, judging for themselves what available work is best.
<snip>
In modern societies (as opposed to traditional ones), the garbage gets picked up for one of two reasons. Either the state assigns someone to do it and punishes them if they don’t do it or don’t do it well. Or labor markets let people choose the job voluntarily, judging for themselves what available work is best.
#5755
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Howie
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 16, 2017 at 12:17 am Reason: discuss the issue, not the posters
#5756
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
Pilots on long haul flights often have a sleep area with a bed. I would be happy to be proven wrong but doubt that 'crew rest' would be acceptably achieved / defined as a 5.5 hour car ride with someone else driving
Would you want your pilots to have flown in the night before and slept 6+ hours in a private hotel room or to have spent those 6 hours in the back of a car with 3 other crew members trying to nod off between bumps, bridges, snores, jolts etc.
Would you want your pilots to have flown in the night before and slept 6+ hours in a private hotel room or to have spent those 6 hours in the back of a car with 3 other crew members trying to nod off between bumps, bridges, snores, jolts etc.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Last, what many believe to be their "passenger rights" is not the same as your Constitutional Rights. Air travel is NOT a right; it is a CONVENIENCE. However, you, as an individual, do have every right to buy or charter a private flight in order to meet your specific travel requirements and expectations. If you can't afford this mode of travel, other options are yet available. You may reach your destination by train, bus, or how about this... DRIVE yourself. The chances that you will be "bullied, beaten, concussed, humiliated, or booted" from your private vehicle are slim to none.
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
#5757
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My reaction to the first video is that the "narrator" seems extremely out of control. I wonder whether he works as a non-police security "officer" at ORD, namely a Chicago Aviation Security Officer. I find it odd for someone to react so strongly to a news event that wasn't personally witnessed unless there's some connection to one of the parties that were involved.
#5758
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA MileagePlus (Premier Gold); Hilton HHonors (Gold); Chase Ultimate Rewards; Amex Plat
Posts: 6,605
Amen! Whether the public wants to believe it or not, this happens with every airline, every day. I had a family member subject to same. When asked to deplane, she calmly gathered her belongings and complied.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
While I do not agree with crew scheduling advancing a last minute crew on board flight 3411, the chances that they were bumping passengers to get home are highly unlikely. If UA had to inconvenience four passengers to salvage a flight of 70(+) up the line, so be it. They weighed their options for what they believed was the greater good.
Hell, even if I've got a vacation and and reservations at a restaurant it's really hard to get reservations at on the first night, I'd probably be willing to get off the plane for $5000. And I'd go willingly, knowing that the $5000 would pay for all of the hotels I'm staying at for 1-2 weeks.
#5759
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ORD
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Posts: 357
The unfortunate outcome for passenger Dao was the result of his defiance toward "law enforcement" on scene. With the representation of an attorney, this individual wants to take a stand for passenger rights; had he taken a stand on flight 3411, and deplaned without incident, handling the situation with UA personnel (as did the prior three passengers), no altercation or injury would have taken place. This entire incident has only set a negative precedence for ALL parties involved.
This CEO is a joke. Even though I have millions of miles on Untied I would be ok if the airline just went away.
Oh BTW, why has no one complained that the next flight that was offered to the customer was to arrive the next day at 14:00. 12+ hours later.....who would ever accept that in their right mind.
#5760
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But hopefully, public anger will have an impact on Congress and we'll get some level of increased passenger protections in the future. I don't expect them to seriously change how the U.S. airline cartel does business, but some level of humane customer service related rules could get added. (Start with some degree of meaningful IDB compensation with minimum amounts will above where they are today.)
Dao himself can choose to take a settlement and disappear. No one would blame him if he does that. Or he could fight this thing all the way to a long, messy, public trial - and that might actually end up in our (the traveling public) favor.