Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
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Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.
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N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
What facts do we know?
- UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
- After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
- United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
- After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
- One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
- The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
- After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
- United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”
United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017
Videos
- Passenger one row behind and on the aisle footage BEFORE man was dragged off https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707
- Videos of man being removed https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1491983214 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAZEk6nsNE
- Video of man re-entering plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEQDWpYbZA (link dead)
Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
- On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
- We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
- He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
- Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
- Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
- Chicago Aviation Department said on the Monday afternoon after the incident that the officer who had dragged the passenger off the plane had been placed on leave pending an investigation. Spokesperson Karen Pride said in an email that "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
- 4/12/17: Two more Chicago Aviation officers involved are suspended
- Muńoz does ABC interview, announcing United will no longer use law enforcement to remove passengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90jSUe_vdhM
- United announces policy change that crews traveling on their aircraft must be booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
- United releases multiple changes in overbooking / denied boarding policies "We are making changes to ensure that we always put customers first" (http://newsroom.united.com/2017-04-2...mer-Experience) released 27 April 2017
- Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
- Response to Senate Commerce Committee questions - 1 May 2017
- United Airlines PR Boss to Step Down
- James Long, one of several officers involved in removing David Dao from the April 9, 2017, flight to make room for airline employees, filed suit on Tuesday against United, Chicago’s Department of Aviation and its commissioner, Ginger Evans. The lawsuit, filed in the circuit court of Cook County, Illinois, alleges he was not properly trained on how to use force.
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines
Poll link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KP68GYG
Results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
Reference MaterialResults link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.
If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspxIf your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}
Apr 13, 2017, 9:57 am
#4696
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: National Capitol Region
Programs: Delta Dirt Medallion,AA,USairways, WN Rapid Rewards, National Emerald Club
Posts: 3,912
Apr 13, 2017, 9:58 am
#4697
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: LIT
Programs: Blinged Out
Posts: 716
Yes yes yes^ Saying they were limited to $1,350 by federal regs is like saying someone can't build a building to better than what code states. I assure, my home is built to standards way above what any "code" states.
Theoretically, UA could have offered whatever they wanted to offer to move the seat.
Apr 13, 2017, 9:59 am
#4698
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2012
Programs: AAdvantage Executive Platinum, Delta Silver Medallion, Marriott Bonvoy Ambassador
Posts: 14,072
You've been flying for a whole day, back from China, and this is the last leg. You are jet-lagged, and just need to sleep in your own bed. You have a full day of work tomorrow. The gate agent comes in and states that four people have to go because they need room for four employees. The GA acts as though the passengers are all jerks for not jumping to volunteer for a highly limited $800 voucher, given that the next flight being offered is a full day later--not even early the next morning. You don't need an $800 voucher--your work responsibilities the next day simply cannot be bought off. Find someone who has that flexibility and buy them off. At least one person offered to be bumped for a large, but not unreasonably large, amount, and the gate agent laughed at them.
Then, out of the blue (from your perspective), you are told that the computer selected you to be bumped. You say you're sorry, but you can't wait a whole day--you have to be at work. They say, sorry, but you're the stuckee and you'll just have to suck it up (that's what you will hear anyway). You again refuse. They tell you they are going to call the cops to have you removed.
What? Call the cops because I'm sitting in the seat I paid for, minding my own business? I think not! Many people (myself included) respond poorly to arbitrary ultimatums. You tell them, go ahead, believing that no cop would accede to do something so unfair. You can think of a few things you would like to tell the cop about the gate agent, for that matter.
The cop arrives, and tells you that he doesn't care about anything you say, he will remove you by force if necessary. You are thinking, if I get up now, they win, and I'll be doggoned if I'm going to let them get away with this. You are talking to your lawyer or a family member to relay to your lawyer on the phone, while the cops are escalating the situation.
They do not charge you with a crime. They do not arrest you, or read you your rights, or anything like that. They just say they will drag you out if they have to. So, you tell them you'd rather be dragged out than railroaded.
Add to this a memory of persons of your nationality/ethnicity being the victims of aggression of this type in the past, as an influence on your thinking.
Here's the point. It's easy to sit in our comfy chairs and opine about what others should do in the moment of stress. But in the situation, I could see myself doing exactly what he did. I probably would have relented earlier, because being arrested would be a problem for my employer.
Of course, the cops and the airline could also have relented to protect the image of their employer. They did not, and that image was destroyed, even if just temporarily.
Then, out of the blue (from your perspective), you are told that the computer selected you to be bumped. You say you're sorry, but you can't wait a whole day--you have to be at work. They say, sorry, but you're the stuckee and you'll just have to suck it up (that's what you will hear anyway). You again refuse. They tell you they are going to call the cops to have you removed.
What? Call the cops because I'm sitting in the seat I paid for, minding my own business? I think not! Many people (myself included) respond poorly to arbitrary ultimatums. You tell them, go ahead, believing that no cop would accede to do something so unfair. You can think of a few things you would like to tell the cop about the gate agent, for that matter.
The cop arrives, and tells you that he doesn't care about anything you say, he will remove you by force if necessary. You are thinking, if I get up now, they win, and I'll be doggoned if I'm going to let them get away with this. You are talking to your lawyer or a family member to relay to your lawyer on the phone, while the cops are escalating the situation.
They do not charge you with a crime. They do not arrest you, or read you your rights, or anything like that. They just say they will drag you out if they have to. So, you tell them you'd rather be dragged out than railroaded.
Add to this a memory of persons of your nationality/ethnicity being the victims of aggression of this type in the past, as an influence on your thinking.
Here's the point. It's easy to sit in our comfy chairs and opine about what others should do in the moment of stress. But in the situation, I could see myself doing exactly what he did. I probably would have relented earlier, because being arrested would be a problem for my employer.
Of course, the cops and the airline could also have relented to protect the image of their employer. They did not, and that image was destroyed, even if just temporarily.
Last edited by ysolde; Apr 13, 2017 at 10:16 am
Apr 13, 2017, 10:00 am
#4699
Moderator: American AAdvantage, Travel Safety/Security & Texas, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: AUS / GRK
Programs: AA, HHonors, Hertz
Posts: 13,484
Some interesting observations from the press conference:
1. The pilot is in charge of the ship. Where was he/she? Did they give the order to remove?
2. FA's are, "there for our safety." What aid did they provide to the injured passenger?
3. A crime scene is to be preserved for evidence. Why was the plane then flown that evening? Where has it been since?
4. GA filed a false report.
5. No one from United has reached out to the injured, his family, nor his attorney.
I predict that this will get far far worse for United.
1. The pilot is in charge of the ship. Where was he/she? Did they give the order to remove?
2. FA's are, "there for our safety." What aid did they provide to the injured passenger?
3. A crime scene is to be preserved for evidence. Why was the plane then flown that evening? Where has it been since?
4. GA filed a false report.
5. No one from United has reached out to the injured, his family, nor his attorney.
I predict that this will get far far worse for United.
Apr 13, 2017, 10:04 am
#4701
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CAK/CLE
Programs: UA Plat/AA,DL Dirt/HH Diamond,Hyatt Something-ist/Hz Prez,Avis Pres Club
Posts: 674
What I'm wondering is what if all the passengers said the same thing because they all HAD to be there on that flight? What if no one were that someone else? There HAS to be a backup plan for what to do if no one takes any offer, no matter how high. It isn't totally logical to say what the lawyer said, although it is indeed likely that someone would take an offer most of the time. What if no one will? Got to have some plan.
Apr 13, 2017, 10:05 am
#4702
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: Chase, Amex, Citi, basically all of them
Posts: 72
I haven't read through all 298 pages of this thread so I apologize if this information has been previously posted.
I seems if Dr. Dao has a somewhat checked past and this may account for his reluctance to comply with law enforcement personnel.
From People.com human interest
Dao was arrested in 2003 as part of an undercover operation. Two years later, Dao was convicted on six felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud and deceit and in 2005, he was sentenced to five years probation. Dao was also convicted for writing prescriptions and checks to a male patient in exchange for sexual favors.
In February 2005, Dao surrendered his license to practice medicine in Kentucky.
In response, the state medical licensing board issued a suspension that was lifted in 2015. But the board has since placed severe restrictions on Dao’s ability to practice internal medicine, which will be lifted on Feb. 28, 2018, according to documents obtained by PEOPLE.
State records indicate the board believes Dao’s practices are outdated.
Last year, the medical board imposed restrictions on his right to practice. He can only practice internal medicine in an outpatient facility one day a week.
I seems if Dr. Dao has a somewhat checked past and this may account for his reluctance to comply with law enforcement personnel.
From People.com human interest
Dao was arrested in 2003 as part of an undercover operation. Two years later, Dao was convicted on six felony counts of obtaining drugs by fraud and deceit and in 2005, he was sentenced to five years probation. Dao was also convicted for writing prescriptions and checks to a male patient in exchange for sexual favors.
In February 2005, Dao surrendered his license to practice medicine in Kentucky.
In response, the state medical licensing board issued a suspension that was lifted in 2015. But the board has since placed severe restrictions on Dao’s ability to practice internal medicine, which will be lifted on Feb. 28, 2018, according to documents obtained by PEOPLE.
State records indicate the board believes Dao’s practices are outdated.
Last year, the medical board imposed restrictions on his right to practice. He can only practice internal medicine in an outpatient facility one day a week.
Apr 13, 2017, 10:09 am
#4703
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SIN
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Posts: 1,942
Apr 13, 2017, 10:13 am
#4704
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SNA
Programs: AA gold, DL Gold, HHonors Diamond, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Plat
Posts: 446
What I'm wondering is what if all the passengers said the same thing because they all HAD to be there on that flight? What if no one were that someone else? There HAS to be a backup plan for what to do if no one takes any offer, no matter how high. It isn't totally logical to say what the lawyer said, although it is indeed likely that someone would take an offer most of the time. What if no one will? Got to have some plan.
United employees are authorized to follow procedure not to do what is right or logical or customer-friendly or civilized. That is an issue of corporate culture.
Apr 13, 2017, 10:13 am
#4705
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2006
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What I'm wondering is what if all the passengers said the same thing because they all HAD to be there on that flight? What if no one were that someone else? There HAS to be a backup plan for what to do if no one takes any offer, no matter how high. It isn't totally logical to say what the lawyer said, although it is indeed likely that someone would take an offer most of the time. What if no one will? Got to have some plan.
Apr 13, 2017, 10:14 am
#4706
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: Chase, Amex, Citi, basically all of them
Posts: 72
I'm talking about the status of the record in the system. My bet is, he volunteered, the GA went and pulled him off the flight in the system, came back with his new itinerary, he didn't like it and changed his mind, and then, instead of trying to then put the passenger back on the flight in the system and then rebook someone else, the GA just made him one of the IDBs.
I think you are conflating an entity with it's property.
The property owner asked you to leave, and now we're asking you to leave, is a legal instruction.
For the purposes of, "Will you be removed by force if you are asked to leave and do not", yes, it is.
Yes. It's not worth the bad PR to just not pay the guy.
I'm not saying it's always legal for someone to ask for someone to be removed from their property... but if they ask for someone to be removed from their property, and that person says no, and then they bring in law enforcement to remove them from the property, absent some extremely convincing evidence on the part of the person being asked to leave, law enforcement is going to ask that person to leave the property, and if that person does not leave, they will be removed by force.
If there is disagreement as to the legality of the request, that is figured out later.
To use the extreme case, if I ask the cops to remove that black guy from my restaurant, they are going to ask him to leave, and if he doesn't, they are going to force him to leave, and later he can sue my [edited per Rule 16]. But he doesn't get to hang around in the meantime while we figure out if my request is legal or not.
No it isn't. Overbooking is why you can miss your flight and fly standby on the next one. If airlines were flying empty seats everytime someone no-showed, they would absolutely be charging you for it.
Unfortunately, no airline sells the service you are talking about. The only service airlines sell is transportation from A to B, with a refund if they fail to deliver. You can WANT the service you purchase to be different, but it isn't.
If you pay for something and it hasn't been given to you yet (absent a specific contract to the contrary) the only thing the other party is obligated to do if they fail to give it to you is give your money back.
So no, you have never paid for the service of getting from point A to point B on a specific flight.
I think you are conflating an entity with it's property.
The property owner asked you to leave, and now we're asking you to leave, is a legal instruction.
For the purposes of, "Will you be removed by force if you are asked to leave and do not", yes, it is.
Yes. It's not worth the bad PR to just not pay the guy.
I'm not saying it's always legal for someone to ask for someone to be removed from their property... but if they ask for someone to be removed from their property, and that person says no, and then they bring in law enforcement to remove them from the property, absent some extremely convincing evidence on the part of the person being asked to leave, law enforcement is going to ask that person to leave the property, and if that person does not leave, they will be removed by force.
If there is disagreement as to the legality of the request, that is figured out later.
To use the extreme case, if I ask the cops to remove that black guy from my restaurant, they are going to ask him to leave, and if he doesn't, they are going to force him to leave, and later he can sue my [edited per Rule 16]. But he doesn't get to hang around in the meantime while we figure out if my request is legal or not.
No it isn't. Overbooking is why you can miss your flight and fly standby on the next one. If airlines were flying empty seats everytime someone no-showed, they would absolutely be charging you for it.
Unfortunately, no airline sells the service you are talking about. The only service airlines sell is transportation from A to B, with a refund if they fail to deliver. You can WANT the service you purchase to be different, but it isn't.
If you pay for something and it hasn't been given to you yet (absent a specific contract to the contrary) the only thing the other party is obligated to do if they fail to give it to you is give your money back.
So no, you have never paid for the service of getting from point A to point B on a specific flight.
Apr 13, 2017, 10:15 am
#4707
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: National Capitol Region
Programs: Delta Dirt Medallion,AA,USairways, WN Rapid Rewards, National Emerald Club
Posts: 3,912
Am I correct that there is no limit on pain and suffering damages in Illinois?
Apr 13, 2017, 10:19 am
#4708
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: Chase, Amex, Citi, basically all of them
Posts: 72
Apr 13, 2017, 10:19 am
#4709
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Cleveland, OH
Programs: UA-GS 1MM), Hertz Pres Circle, Starriott Titanium)
Posts: 1,966
What I'm wondering is what if all the passengers said the same thing because they all HAD to be there on that flight? What if no one were that someone else? There HAS to be a backup plan for what to do if no one takes any offer, no matter how high. It isn't totally logical to say what the lawyer said, although it is indeed likely that someone would take an offer most of the time. What if no one will? Got to have some plan.
Apr 13, 2017, 10:20 am
#4710
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 72
Statements like this is one of the ways companies invite regulation:
"Delta Air Lines (DAL) CEO Ed Bastian told Reuters that overbooking was “a valid business practice” and did not require additional oversight by the government."
What he should do is come out and say how his company will be different than United and how he thinks the entire industry should treat customers. CEO's are smart people who can act very dumb.
"Delta Air Lines (DAL) CEO Ed Bastian told Reuters that overbooking was “a valid business practice” and did not require additional oversight by the government."
What he should do is come out and say how his company will be different than United and how he thinks the entire industry should treat customers. CEO's are smart people who can act very dumb.