Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)

The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)

1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.

3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.

4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.

5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.

If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.

Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.

The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
DOT findings related to the UA3411 9 April 2017 IDB incident 12 May 2017

What facts do we know?
  • UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
  • After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
  • United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
  • After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
  • One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
  • The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
  • After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
  • United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017

Videos

Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Summary of Flight 3411
  • On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
  • We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
  • He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
  • Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
  • Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Email sent to all employees at 2:08PM on Tuesday, April 11.
Dear Team,

The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.

It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.

I promise you we will do better.

Sincerely,

Oscar
Statement to customers - 27 April 2017
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Aftermath
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines Reference Material

UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.

If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.

We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx
Print Wikipost

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:30 pm
  #3766  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SLC
Programs: UA 1K, Hertz PC, Avis PC, Hilton Diamond, BW Diamond, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 212
Here are some questions... Are any of the UAX gates at ORD staffed by non UA personnel...SkyWest etc? The crew of 4 would be indicative of an express crew, so are they scheduled differently than mainline? I believe they are. If so to either questions, does that change anything in this situation? Surely a crew positioning trip is a given, but was some of this sloppy typical UAX crew scheduling? I've seen more than once less than stellar UAX crew schedule mishaps. If the GA was a UAX contractor, was training a factor? Just speculating here.
asphaltman is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:30 pm
  #3767  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by dweick
Choice C Addendum: Collect $600,000 from United, retire and fly private jets in the future.
I'm not sure 600000 is enough to retire AND fly private jets in future. It's not a whole lot of money...
Silverelf is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:31 pm
  #3768  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by xrayflyer
If I call the cops and they beat up some guy trespassing on my property am I going to be liable? I think not...

Lets say he was a tenant of yours and had some legal right to be on your property. And you called the cops and he got beat down. Yeah, you've got some exposure, there.
looktowindward is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:31 pm
  #3769  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Programs: DL GM
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by leungy18
Well, while airlines do take advantage of federal law -- UA is rightfully getting skewered for not doing more than the bare minimum that it was required to in order to defuse the situation.
Of course they're rightfully getting skewered for it, they deserve every ounce of it too. Realistically though, doing the bare minimum is how US airlines operate so is anyone really shocked? These airlines won't ever change, and won't ever have a reason to change, until either the federal government changes the laws or people vote with their wallets.

As big a game as boycott United people are talking, I just can't imagine anything will change. If United is even $15 less on a route than their competition, most people will jump at it. Perhaps that is the cynic in me, but I just don't see any change happening.

Originally Posted by wolf72
I do not agree with this statement.

Just because the laws side with the airline, does not mean common sense and sensible decision making goes out the window and mistreating passengers like sub-human's is acceptable.

The problem lies with the attitude of the ground staff and the management who not only hire people with this mentality and idea that the customer is not always right and the airline is never wrong and they can do as they please.

Whoever decided to offload the passengers has gotten away scott free. His or her name has not been mentioned but that individual who was bloodied and bruised is all over the news and social media.

I would very much like to know the rational of bumping 4 passengers off a flight that was ready to depart instead of sending the 4 crew members an hour later on a rival airliner that was going to the very same destination.

And who in flight operations decided to do this and for what reason.

I wish UA would stop hiding and covering up their mistakes and pretending this will all go away tommorrow.
The bolded statements are where I think we differ. You're making the assumption that the gate agent was an incompetent fool incapable of using rational thought or common sense. I believe the gate agent was acting exactly like he/she was told to act.

This incident, and United's statements after the fact, make it abundantly clear to me that they have very strict policies in place and do not give their employees leeway to improvise with the company's money.

This is a philosophy problem with United, from the top down, not a problem with a rogue GA having a bad day and looking to screw people. If I had to guess, this is what happened:

- GA was told just after boarding to make room for four crew members
- GA asked for volunteers as usual, going up to a VDB voucher amount that the computer told her was the max for this flight
- When no volunteers stepped forward, GA moved on with the IDB process as trained to do
- Computer spit out the 4 lowest fares to be IDBed, likely to receive the same $800 if not less
- When a passenger didn't comply, GA had him removed exactly as trained to do

Again, perhaps that is me being cynical about UA as a company, but I don't believe for a second this GA just went rogue. She did what she was told, which is why Munoz went through so much effort to have his/her back.
RumPatrol is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:31 pm
  #3770  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: Free agent, UA 1K, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 353
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
I wonder whether it didn't occur to Oscar that the email to employees was going to become public.
An email to tens of thousands of employees is most certainly going public. Oscar and team knew that before sending which makes it that much more tone deaf.
bioyuki is online now  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:33 pm
  #3771  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,415
Originally Posted by bioyuki
An email to tens of thousands of employees is most certainly going public. Oscar and team knew that before sending which makes it that much more tone deaf.
Anyone who touched that e-mail before it went out should be gone.
Kacee is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:35 pm
  #3772  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 110
My point is United is NOT responsible for how the cops roughed the guy up.

If it were United employees that manhandled the guy that would be a different story...

Remember cops can shoot an unarmed black man dead in his car with no consequences and attribute that to stress on the job.

Sure past transgressions are not be considered in court of law but this is really court of public opinion that United is worried about.

If it went to trial I'm sure united would just say hey go sue the police dept all we asked them to do was remove you from the flight.

If I had some guy trespassing on my property I'd call the cops too and if he's beat up or killed - not like I had anything to do with it other than reporting a crime.

Originally Posted by wolf72
1) I don't think a judge will see any relevance in the passenger's past transgressions in this instance. This is me speaking from handling litigations in the past relating to law suits filed against corporate companies.

2) The passenger was well within his rights to reject a request to be off loaded as he had a duty to his patients the following day and the airline should have looked at the option of 1 of the substitute pilots potentially taking a jump seat and solving the problem. Approval could have been given for this from flight operations and this would not have been an issue.

3) The airline had alternative actions it could have taken but chose not to do so without this becoming physical.
xrayflyer is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:36 pm
  #3773  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,866
Originally Posted by Wooglin
This might be the longest thread I've ever seen on FT.
Not yet the longest. Probably one of the most active over such a short period of time. It will soon hit No. 10 in terms of replies on the United forum, and is high up there on the number of views. You can go to the first page on the United forum and sort the replies and views to rank by the numbers and can see how the post is moving up.

I want to see United improve but it seems they are lost and Munoz has not helped in terms of customer service.

Oscar will be on Good Morning America. I will set the alarm to get up and watch.

I am in my mid 60s and that guy was 69. When I was in my 30s and 40s long delays were rough, but when you hit your 60s you could be dragging for a day or two from an overly long delay.

Last edited by BF263533; Apr 11, 2017 at 10:44 pm
BF263533 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:36 pm
  #3774  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: Free agent, UA 1K, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 353
Originally Posted by Terence.Hill
Knowing that any contact with armed government officials can be lethal the Pilot in Command of this plane who is accountable for the safety of all passengers should have been personally present during this situation. He was not and should be held liable for the consequences.
I'm super curious to know this as well, especially since so many of the UA defenders have cited 14 CFR and 49 USC rules, which only pertain to the PIC and FAs via delegation, not ground crew or gate agents. For all the people who believe pilots are God-like, where was the PIC in this situation?

My hypothesis is that the PIC and crew saw what a cluster this was and kept out of it. Unfortunately the PIC has some amount of responsibility here given it's on the plane, even if it's not a closed door situation.
bioyuki is online now  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:38 pm
  #3775  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Brunei
Programs: Enrich Sapphire. Kris Flyer Silver.Le Club Accorhotels,Starwood.
Posts: 2,201
Originally Posted by xrayflyer
My point is United is NOT responsible for how the cops roughed the guy up.

If it were United employees that manhandled the guy that would be a different story...

Remember cops can shoot an unarmed black man dead in his car with no consequences and attribute that to stress on the job.

Sure past transgressions are not be considered in court of law but this is really court of public opinion that United is worried about.

If it went to trial I'm sure united would just say hey go sue the police dept all we asked them to do was remove you from the flight.

If I had some guy trespassing on my property I'd call the cops too and if he's beat up or killed - not like I had anything to do with it other than reporting a crime.

A good lawyer will be able to direct his case at UA as the responsible party in the law suit and I am pretty sure the judge or magistrate handling the case will see the rational of it once all arguments are put forward.

You can argue it was the airport security or police who caused the injuries but as you probably should realize, the party responsible for this mess to begin with were UA who acted with malice and were responsible primarily for the welfare and care of all it's passengers at all times.

More so once they had boarded and were seated.

I feel sorry for any law firm representing UA in this when the case does go to trial.

But, knowing how these things are, this will be settled behind closed doors and a premium paid to end the PR nightmare UA are going through.

Hint: look at their stock prices today
wolf72 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:38 pm
  #3776  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Programs: AA EXP, PriorityClub Gold, SPG Gold, Hertz Gold fivestar
Posts: 486
Originally Posted by RumPatrol
This is a philosophy problem with United, from the top down, not a problem with a rogue GA having a bad day and looking to screw people. If I had to guess, this is what happened:

- GA was told just after boarding to make room for four crew members
- GA asked for volunteers as usual, going up to a VDB voucher amount that the computer told her was the max for this flight
- When no volunteers stepped forward, GA moved on with the IDB process as trained to do
- Computer spit out the 4 lowest fares to be IDBed, likely to receive the same $800 if not less
- When a passenger didn't comply, GA had him removed exactly as trained to do

Again, perhaps that is me being cynical about UA as a company, but I don't believe for a second this GA just went rogue. She did what she was told, which is why Munoz went through so much effort to have his/her back.
I wonder what the GA was thinking at the time and how it came across.
Eg) If he/she was thinking:
"We have messed up and I'm looking for a volunteer for a mutually beneficial compromise"
then I expect the outcome to be different vs thinking:
"These passengers are delaying my flight because they won't accept. I'm going to have to force some of them so that they can let me do my job".
ChrL is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:39 pm
  #3777  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 110
Doubt it. How can you control what the cops do?

It's their job to assess the situation and act appropriately NOT be your personal goons.

I can't order them NOT to beat down as much as I can order them to beat you down. They do whatever they want to do and any reasonable jury would understand that.

Originally Posted by looktowindward
Lets say he was a tenant of yours and had some legal right to be on your property. And you called the cops and he got beat down. Yeah, you've got some exposure, there.
xrayflyer is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:43 pm
  #3778  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Brunei
Programs: Enrich Sapphire. Kris Flyer Silver.Le Club Accorhotels,Starwood.
Posts: 2,201
Originally Posted by bioyuki
An email to tens of thousands of employees is most certainly going public. Oscar and team knew that before sending which makes it that much more tone deaf.
To send out that email and the contents of that email, knowing full well it would probably become public in a matter of minutes, is/was down to pure incompetence.

Whoever is handling their PR & Communications should really be fired or sacked.

Instead of stating the obvious that an incident has happened and an investigation is now underway to find out the facts, and that the airline stands behind all it's employee's and crew and value their contribution to the company, any conclusion at this juncture would be premature.

What Oscar stated in his email was basically him shooting himself in his foot and it will not go down well, especially in the pending law suit that, without a doubt, is coming around the corner.

Sometimes, the best thing to do, is NOT to comment in this situations and just state "we are investigating what transpired" and leave it at that until the company is better prepared to deal with the situation, and having more facts and more information.

This was just handled in such an amateur level...it's going to be used as a case studies in colleges around the world as an example of not what to do when you have a serious customer service issue.
wolf72 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:44 pm
  #3779  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Brunei
Programs: Enrich Sapphire. Kris Flyer Silver.Le Club Accorhotels,Starwood.
Posts: 2,201
Originally Posted by xrayflyer
Doubt it. How can you control what the cops do?

It's their job to assess the situation and act appropriately NOT be your personal goons.

I can't order them NOT to beat down as much as I can order them to beat you down. They do whatever they want to do and any reasonable jury would understand that.
Come settlement, UA will be chucking out more $$ than the airport authorities to make this go away.
wolf72 is offline  
Old Apr 11, 2017, 10:45 pm
  #3780  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: Free agent, UA 1K, Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 353
VX throwing shade at United this afternoon at SFO:


Last edited by bioyuki; Apr 11, 2017 at 10:47 pm Reason: Bad image
bioyuki is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.