sinoflyer

IMO this is another situation where we, as outside observers, aren't privy to all the information behind why the flight was ultimately CXLD. Two possible reasons: 1) ATC extended flow control or further reduced the acceptance rate after issuing the revised wheels up time; 2) UA dispatched the aircraft to another route. In the latter case where fault would lie with the airline, I'd expect UA to own up rather than hide behind 1).

findark

The two things here are very disconnected. The "Wheels Up Time" is the FAA departure slot which has been assigned to the aircraft based on the SFO GDP. It is a tentative slot when posted to the system, but will usually hold unless there is a significant change in the conditions at SFO (other chance if someone cancels and gives up a slot). The recommendation to re-quote departure is an official guidance from the FAA on whether to officially post (re-quote) a delay. Because airlines try to avoid un-delaying flights, this typically indicates a confidence in whether an earlier slot might become available.

A common instance is, for example, a proposed slot 2h00 late with a re-quote to 0h30 late which hasn't posted to UA's systems yet. It's very standard for the full 2h00 delay to hit, and so this is an instance where I really get value out of EF as I will head to the lounge and play departure chicken (making sure I run to the gate at T-15 if nothing posts).

The decision to cancel the flight was made by United operations (possibly in conjunction with Skywest). In the case of that flight (5165) they had a departure slot but the assigned frame N903SW got hopelessly stuck as it was scheduled to transit SFO twice before (BUR-SFO-RDD-SFO-ONT). They ended up ferrying it BUR-RDD nonstop, where it waited 5 hours after the scheduled RDD-SFO for an arrival slot, and the rest of its flights were scrubbed.

FlightCancelled

I think its wrong to say that air traffic control is the reason behind the delay, just because ATC manage the delay.

PDXpress

My feeling is that UA blamed all SFO delays and cancellations yesterday on the closed runway, but it's not like the closure was a surprise. I know that in the past UA has scheduled fewer flights when they know well in advance that runway work is being done.

It just seems like a blanket cop out.

laxmillenial

UA might schedule a few less flights into SFO in order to have less delays. However, they lose money for each flight they proactively not schedule due to the runway work. Why would a business want to shoot itself in the foot and lose money? Especially when they can fly a 'delayed' flight instead.

There's only so much an airline can do against ATC. It's for YOUR safety.

PDXpress

It was a weird day at SFO. I had a 75 minute intl-domestic connection (I know, I know). UA cancelled my connection out of SFO (UA 5993) at least 12 hours before it was due to depart, also due to "ATC reasons". So I arrived at SFO knowing my connection was cancelled, but because of the 16 minute late arrival, UA using only 1 door to deplane a 747, and long immigration lines, I would have missed the connection had it not already been cancelled.

Here's a fun game: try to find a UA agent to help you when you arrive intl at SFO. The baggage guys right before customs sent me to intl check in who sent me to terminal 3. Really? Where's the connection desk? That is not how an airlines hub airport is supposed to work.

It was also strange the the UA agents I finally found reacted with suprising smuggness when the saw in their system that both the delay and the cancellation were "ATC issues". Suddenly I was not their problem Some of those folks seem to really get a kick out of not helping people.

LarryJ

It's common for multiple causes to contribute to a delay. The app only shows one reason. The internal system tracks delay causes in greater detail.

On a recent commute to work, my flight was delayed due to seven completely independent problems. There's no way to accurately put that into a single delay code.

zrs70

OP, I didn't have much to add at first. But in response to your second post, I am noticing something....

It sounds like you had hoped for more responses along the lines of, "Yeah, United sucks because they lie." But you didn't get those responses.

In turn, you found a couple of more things to point the finger at:

1) That is not how an airline hub is supposed to work
2) Some of these folks seem to really get a kick out of not helping people

Am I being harsh? Probably. Can UA improve its game? Probably. Are you hoping for more support from FT? Probably!

don731

International departures are generally not subject to FAA TMIs (Traffic Management Initiatives) upon departure. They can experience ATC delays enroute or on approach. A FRA departure could be delayed due to Eurocontrol slot management.

Not quite the case. Flight operators are assigned initial delays to a GDP (Ground Delay Program) by the FAA computer known as TFMS (Traffic Flow Management System). Airlines that are CDM members (Collaborative Decision Making) are free to substitute any of their flights to the destination airport that can arrive at that slot time, plus or minus 5 minutes. They can also cancel a flight, and use that open slot to sub into. The "no requote at this time" is generated within (in this case) the UAL automation. Typically, airlines will not quote the entire delay as you correctly point out due to the possibility of improved weather conditions or other factors that will allow for a higher AAR (Airport Arrival Rate). Instead they may quote into their FLIGHTFLOW type systems (which feed the flight status on their websites) a portion of the delay, quoting more of the total delay as the time progresses towards scheduled departure time. Some airlines do not have this capability, with systems that only permit quoting into FlightFlow the entire delay as received from TFMS, making them more reluctant to quote any delay if they think it's not stable. More info here: http://cdm.fly.faa.gov

PTahCha

SFO transfer desk is right before/next to the transfer baggage guys, on your left.

findark

If the re-quote recommendation is UA-internal, why does it not post quickly to the public system? It's common in my experience for it to take an hour or more for the "Recommended re-quote" time to actually show up in the topline flight status (in addition to the fact that it will usually be a rolling delay up to the slot time).

Either way, I get my full EF subscription value out of that info whenever I'm flying into GDP delays

don731

A recommendation only. Requires manual update of the flight status. What is EF subscription?

findark

EF = ExpertFlyer. Paid subscription service that generally gives access to various things via GDS, also happening to include the flight status readout which includes the GDP updates.

fgirard

Yes, they are supposed to be there...but for the afternoon arrivals, there is no one there usually, and sometimes, the baggage re-check staff wouldn't be there either.

PDXpress

I've always found FT to be a wonderful source for answers and information I've been around long enough not to expect support, but rather a good exchange of ideas and opinions. This is not some sort of passenger mutual admiration society.

I'm trying to establish if UA has a pattern of blaming ATC for delays to avoid responsibility. From the responses here, the answer is a firm maybe. I'm still trying to figure out how a flight can be cancelled for ATC reasons 12 hours before scheduled departure on a day with perfect weather in California and Oregon, the only places the plane was scheduled to fly.

Overall, I can only compare this UA experience with a similar one on DL a couple months ago that was handled very differently. CDG-SLC was delayed over an hour due to freezing fog in CDG and I missed my connection in SLC. 100% weather related delay, so I wasn't expecting anything from Delta. But SLC Delta agents met arriving passengers by name and gave us boarding passes for the following day and hotel vouchers. We didn't even have to ask. So I was somewhat taken aback by the SFO United culture of "you're on your own, this is not our fault (according to us), good luck."