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Is this United's new business class layout?

Is this United's new business class layout?

Old Mar 11, 2016, 7:50 pm
  #151  
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Originally Posted by mduell
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You are right--Virgin Atlantic does have 1-1-1. And I I still prefer UA's BF seat, even with the 2-2-2 configuration (since I always sit in the middle 2 and therefore always have aisle access). I also FAR prefer UA service.

The fact is that I've flown First and Business on most airlines in the last few years: Singapore, Cathay, Asiana, Korean, ANA, Thai, Lufthansa, British, Virgin Atlantic (Business only), Swiss (Business only), Air France (Business only), Turkish (Business only), South African (Business only), Air New Zealand, Qantas, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar (Business only), Aeroflot (Business only), and Avianca (Business only), as well as American, United, and Delta (Business only). In the past 12 months, I've flown Emirates First, United GlobalFirst and BusinessFirst, British First, American Flagship First and Business, Delta BusinessElite, Turkish Business, Lufthansa First and Business, South Africa Business, and Avianca Business. In the coming 12 months, I will be flying Emirates First and Business, Cathay First and Business, Lufthansa First and Business, Swiss Business, Turkish Business, American Flagship First and Business, and United GlobalFirst and BusinessFirst.

The fact is that UA is pretty good for international Business in terms of HARD PRODUCT--since it's one of the few with all lay-flat seats. I obviously prefer the 2-2-2 BF cabin since I can choose the middle 2 seats to have aisle access. I even like GF, even as the seat is dated, as the hard product is still VERY comfortable and spacious. I can understand preferring a 1-2-1 for Business, as with all the leading airlines (and I don't consider Virgin Atlantic to be leading!)...and that is what UA likely will offer when it refurbishes. UA also has my FAVORITE IFE in the world--better than even CX in my opinion, and definitely better than EK and EY, despite ridiculous reports to the contrary.

UA, AA, and DL suffer in terms of soft product--but only when you compare them to the very best. They're all fine. For those who want luxury pampering, there is always Cathay, Singapore, Korean, Emireates, Etihad (if they don't run out of food) and Qatar...or even AF F. But even BA F is not much better in terms of food!

Most people whining haven't flown a lot of other airlines. Emirates and Etihad have tons of angle flat Business. Lufthansa STILL has some angle flat business, though it's finally almost gone. AF still has angle flat business. UA has a decent hard product.

Most people also haven't seen the improvement in UA international service compared to other airlines--especially AA and DL. DL is fine, but UA is just as good nowadays. AA has become a JOKE.

UA is doing fine...and is getting better. It is catching up VERY fast with Delta. In my opinion, I FAR prefer UA to DL for international travel. I only fly AA over UA if they have the better route or equipment--or if it's one of the rare AA routes with FF on a 77W. Otherwise, UA is fine!
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Old Mar 11, 2016, 8:19 pm
  #152  
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Originally Posted by bmwe92fan
UA struggles to sell what it has now - I don't see how increasing density is going to help.... The SQ seat is nearly a meter wide - the NH business staggered product offers amazing privacy and comfort - I will pay $7k for those products - but not likely to pay for this one... Unless UA prices this more like PE it's hard to see this working out well I the competitor world of premium business travel - or perhaps UA just sees something no one else does....
yup, upgrade class. o.k. to pay $1.5k + 2 GPUs ... but not regular C fares. UA either decides to match what others are already offering or they should keep their current product. The new one looks like a terrible idea.
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Old Mar 11, 2016, 8:38 pm
  #153  
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There is no point in comparing UA's current or suspected Business product with SQ or CX or TG or NH or anyone else - the customers are completely different. Most of UA's customers are US-based, corporate travelers on discounts or flying a discounted fare (ie, P, Z, etc) or upgrading, etc....and frankly this is no different for Delta or American.

I've flown NH in their gorgeous J enough times to know where the money is coming from just by looking around the cabin. SQ and CX are similar - their customers are not only willing, but able to spend more and gladly do so for a superior product. My clients are part of that mold - they consider any US carrier flown outside a domestic flight to be an almost revolting concept, we won't even offer it unless it's literally the only remaining option....and that is just not the market that US carriers are able to target, nor do they invest significant resources to do so.

Again, looking at this suspected mockup and the seats, we are getting exactly what WE (United's core premium/repeat customer) are asking for, and it appears to fit the top requests of just about everyone here.

This thread is like screaming for a box of chocolates, and then when we get it, start screaming that it isn't Godiva. We are not Godiva clientele, we are See's clientele, and for that reason, this new product is actually better than we could hope for.
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Old Mar 11, 2016, 9:29 pm
  #154  
 
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
There is no point in comparing UA's current or suspected Business product with SQ or CX or TG or NH or anyone else - the customers are completely different. Most of UA's customers are US-based, corporate travelers on discounts or flying a discounted fare (ie, P, Z, etc) or upgrading, etc....and frankly this is no different for Delta or American.

I've flown NH in their gorgeous J enough times to know where the money is coming from just by looking around the cabin. SQ and CX are similar - their customers are not only willing, but able to spend more and gladly do so for a superior product. My clients are part of that mold - they consider any US carrier flown outside a domestic flight to be an almost revolting concept, we won't even offer it unless it's literally the only remaining option....and that is just not the market that US carriers are able to target, nor do they invest significant resources to do so.

Again, looking at this suspected mockup and the seats, we are getting exactly what WE (United's core premium/repeat customer) are asking for, and it appears to fit the top requests of just about everyone here.

This thread is like screaming for a box of chocolates, and then when we get it, start screaming that it isn't Godiva. We are not Godiva clientele, we are See's clientele, and for that reason, this new product is actually better than we could hope for.
Well said. I also think it is market positioning. UA is not stupid enough to think they can compete with the "best of the best" premium cabins. They know who their travelers are and are putting out the best product for that audience and that will make them money.

I'm excited about what I think will be a great improvement.
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Old Mar 11, 2016, 9:35 pm
  #155  
 
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
There is no point in comparing UA's current or suspected Business product with SQ or CX or TG or NH or anyone else - the customers are completely different. Most of UA's customers are US-based, corporate travelers on discounts or flying a discounted fare (ie, P, Z, etc) or upgrading, etc....and frankly this is no different for Delta or American.

I've flown NH in their gorgeous J enough times to know where the money is coming from just by looking around the cabin. SQ and CX are similar - their customers are not only willing, but able to spend more and gladly do so for a superior product. My clients are part of that mold - they consider any US carrier flown outside a domestic flight to be an almost revolting concept, we won't even offer it unless it's literally the only remaining option....and that is just not the market that US carriers are able to target, nor do they invest significant resources to do so.

Again, looking at this suspected mockup and the seats, we are getting exactly what WE (United's core premium/repeat customer) are asking for, and it appears to fit the top requests of just about everyone here.

This thread is like screaming for a box of chocolates, and then when we get it, start screaming that it isn't Godiva. We are not Godiva clientele, we are See's clientele, and for that reason, this new product is actually better than we could hope for.
The customers aren't that different. Delta certainly doesn't think so. See their numbers or their public statements on the subject.

As for AA, their customers are also CX's customers, so much so that after years of putting their own customers on CX flights AA will soon start their second flight to HKG offering an identical hard product in J and a new soft product that is arguably better than Cathay's. (AA's SYD/LAX catering will become the standard on all long haul international.)

The US 3 no longer have an excuse for not competing with their international peers.
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Old Mar 11, 2016, 10:41 pm
  #156  
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Originally Posted by LDVFlyer
The customers aren't that different. Delta certainly doesn't think so. See their numbers or their public statements on the subject.

As for AA, their customers are also CX's customers, so much so that after years of putting their own customers on CX flights AA will soon start their second flight to HKG offering an identical hard product in J and a new soft product that is arguably better than Cathay's. (AA's SYD/LAX catering will become the standard on all long haul international.)

The US 3 no longer have an excuse for not competing with their international peers.
The customers are vastly different. Delta might not think so, but true premium customers most certainly do - and the fact remains the US carriers just don't cut it in the international quality reputation arena. I don't think many HK or Asia based CX customers would step on a AA flight and think "wow, this is just like Cathay". If any AA customers are stepping on a CX flight and thinking "wow, this is similar to, or not as good as AA", then CX has a pretty big problem that might put its quality reputation in jeopardy (which I understand is a recent problem they're facing).

When it comes to price, the difference is obvious - you can see who occupies the bottom tier of the price scale on most business class fares vs who demands, and gets a premium unless they are knee-capping a US competitor on a specific route. A few moments looking at matrix.ita where all the fares are laid out will clearly illustrate this.

The point being, the tone of this thread seems to suggest that the new purported UA J product is worse than SQ or NH or some other unattainable peer, therefore we're getting the short end of the stick instead of looking at the seats and layout and seeing everything positive that it suggests.
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Old Mar 11, 2016, 10:54 pm
  #157  
 
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Originally Posted by phxrsng
Well said. I also think it is market positioning. UA is not stupid enough to think they can compete with the "best of the best" premium cabins. They know who their travelers are and are putting out the best product for that audience and that will make them money.

I'm excited about what I think will be a great improvement.
Sad statement. Before the takeover, UA did compete and attracted sufficient premium paid travel to make it work. This cheaping out the product is simply not sustainable. What paid premium traffic is left can easily find a way to book another airline and youre certainly not going to make premium work by having a product you can only fill with Y upgrades and cheap P fares. Maybe they can brand it EconomyBusiness.

Really unfortunate there is no F on these birds as there certainly would be no reason to pay C. The proof will be to see if the seat is more of a UA quality or they've gone the cheap, uncomfortable route like all the other seats they are installing.
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 12:25 am
  #158  
 
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This is probably the configuration for the domestic 777s that will be reconfigured soon.

"Ten international 777-200 aircraft that currently have eight United Global First, 40 United BusinessFirst and 218 United Economy seats for a total of 266 will be converted to the new 77G subfleet with 28 lie-flat seats, 102 Economy Plus and 234 United Economy seats for a total of 364. The other nine aircraft to be modified are currently in a domestic configuration of 32 recliner-style United First seats and 312 United Economy seats"
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 1:00 am
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You're all passing final judgment off a diagram.

Last edited by goalie; Mar 12, 2016 at 10:00 am Reason: discuss the issue, not each other
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 4:44 am
  #160  
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Originally Posted by LASUA1K
The seat looks perfectly fine on paper for the 777, but they will need a different design for the 767, 787, and those awful BF seats on the 757.
Having experienced the oft-criticized Club World on BA - which I liked - I think the proposed seats will be fine on a 777. Better than what is currently offered for sure, but those seats aren't going to come close to matching the GF seats.

Given the narrower fuselage, I agree - they will be miserable on the 787.

Originally Posted by bocastephen
This thread is like screaming for a box of chocolates, and then when we get it, start screaming that it isn't Godiva. We are not Godiva clientele, we are See's clientele, and for that reason, this new product is actually better than we could hope for.
LOL, that is an excellent analogy. For me at least, while the design looks fine on paper, I worry about the execution. My fear is that the execution will have too much Jeff Smisek and not enough Oscar Munoz, and end up with a no-frills miserable product designed to satisfy the bean counters.
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 4:52 am
  #161  
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Originally Posted by LDVFlyer
As for AA, their customers are also CX's customers, so much so that after years of putting their own customers on CX flights AA will soon start their second flight to HKG offering an identical hard product in J and a new soft product that is arguably better than Cathay's. (AA's SYD/LAX catering will become the standard on all long haul international.)
AA HKG service - indeed, its total Asian service - is a trivial fraction of AA's total long-haul RPMs. There really isn't that much overlap with the customer set that has been pushed to CX or JL codeshares to keep earning AA miles.
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 6:28 am
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I think that this entire discussion has been quite civil - with people expressing their opinions without attacking each other - so IMHO this has been one of the better threads on FT! To me the next generation seat is THE most important hard product change of the next decade - so I'm glad to see passion around it!

I'm not a fan of the proposed new layout - and others are - and I've enjoyed learning about each individuals different perspectives. I hope we never lose that ability here - as we have on other threads...

Last edited by goalie; Mar 12, 2016 at 10:01 am Reason: removed quote of deleted post and response thereto
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 6:33 am
  #163  
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I suspect these new seats will be just fine on the 777s and A350s. On the narrower 787, I'm not so sure. And if UA skimps on the padding - a reasonable fear given the rock hard slimline seats we now "enjoy" on narrow body aircraft - the better layout will be less enjoyable.

Last edited by goalie; Mar 12, 2016 at 10:01 am Reason: removed quote of deleted post and response thereto
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 7:24 am
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Originally Posted by mike1968
Sad statement. Before the takeover, UA did compete and attracted sufficient premium paid travel to make it work. This cheaping out the product is simply not sustainable. What paid premium traffic is left can easily find a way to book another airline and youre certainly not going to make premium work by having a product you can only fill with Y upgrades and cheap P fares. Maybe they can brand it EconomyBusiness.

Really unfortunate there is no F on these birds as there certainly would be no reason to pay C. The proof will be to see if the seat is more of a UA quality or they've gone the cheap, uncomfortable route like all the other seats they are installing.
Are you saying,with a straight face, that United offered a world class Business class prior to 2010 and that it stopped offering a competitive product after the merger? When the seats didn't change?
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Old Mar 12, 2016, 7:48 am
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Originally Posted by fly18725
Competing on FlyerTalk = offering a world class premium product that one can always upgrade into from a discounted Y seat.

Competing in real life = offering a competitive product that people will pay for while still enabling a financially viable upgrade model.
Agreed, and UA will be competing with BA in terms of hard product with this layout. Having just flown the BA product on an A380, I can tell you I'll take the AA 777W product hands down. The BA seat is narrow (20"), cramped, not at all private, and if you have an aisle seat meal trays are passed over you to be handed to the passenger (through the slide up separator) in the middle or window seats.

This layout to me isn't new or novel, much like everything UA does, it's just a Johnny come lately, copy of something someone else has had for a long time.

Competing in the real world for paying business class passengers with this layout? Not bloody likely. BA is much maligned for this layout.

Anecdotal story: On that BA flight, my seat mate was a grandmother who lived in London, and flies to LA about twice a year to see the grand kids. So, not a "flyertalk" type, and not what many of us arrogant road warriors would call a savvy flier. Her comment was that it was "awkward" she didn't like facing her seat mate so intimately, she hated having trays passed over her, and she felt cramped (she was a small woman at that). It was the first time she'd flown BA on the route having previously always gone on Virgin. I asked why she didn't this time, and she said BA was $2,000 less, so she thought she'd give it a try. For a savings of $2,000 she said she'd do it again, but if the price differential is less than $1K she'd stick with Virgin.

All that said bocostephen had is most right with this: "This thread is like screaming for a box of chocolates, and then when we get it, start screaming that it isn't Godiva. We are not Godiva clientele, we are See's clientele, and for that reason, this new product is actually better than we could hope for."

For United's clientele this layout will probably do just fine, just as DL's cramped J product gets rave reviews here on flyertalk as well (why, I have no idea).

So there you have it, UA will compete with BA and other mass market See's chocolate clientele carriers in the price leader discount business class market.

Last edited by transportbiz; Mar 12, 2016 at 8:00 am
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