Sep 24, 16, 12:05 pm
Last edit by: Global321
From the United Website...
Rule 25 Denied Boarding Compensation
Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:
B. Denied Boarding Non-U.S.A./Canada Flight Origin - Where there is an Oversold UA flight that originates outside the U.S.A. or Canada, no compensation will be provided except where required by local or international laws regulating Oversold flights.
Rule 25 Denied Boarding Compensation
Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:
1. Request for Volunteers
a. UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
2. Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:
a. Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
b. The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
b. The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
3. Transportation for Passengers Denied Boarding - When UA is unable to provide previously confirmed space due to an Oversold flight, UA will provide transportation to such Passengers who have been denied boarding whether voluntarily or involuntarily in accordance with the provisions below.
a. UA will transport the Passenger on its own flight to the Destination without Stopover on its next flight on which space is available at no additional cost to the Passenger, regardless of class of service.
b. If space is available on another Carrier’s flight regardless of class of service, such flights may be used upon United’s sole discretion and the Passenger’s request at no additional cost to the Passenger only if such flight provides an earlier arrival than the UA flight offered in 3) a) above.
b. If space is available on another Carrier’s flight regardless of class of service, such flights may be used upon United’s sole discretion and the Passenger’s request at no additional cost to the Passenger only if such flight provides an earlier arrival than the UA flight offered in 3) a) above.
4. Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarily
a. For passengers traveling in interstate transportation between points within the United States, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
b. For passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a U.S. airport at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
c. For passengers traveling from Canada to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a Canadian airport with a maximum of 200 CAD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight with a maximum of 300 CAD. At the passenger’s request, compensation in the form of check, wire transfer, visa card, or a travel voucher will be made by UA, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA.
d. EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:
b. For passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a U.S. airport at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
c. For passengers traveling from Canada to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a Canadian airport with a maximum of 200 CAD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight with a maximum of 300 CAD. At the passenger’s request, compensation in the form of check, wire transfer, visa card, or a travel voucher will be made by UA, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA.
d. EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:
The flight is cancelled;
The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with the requirements in this Contract of Carriage Requirements regarding ticketing, check-in, reconfirmation procedures, and acceptance for transportation;
The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares;
The Passenger is accommodated on Alternate Transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the Destination, not later than 60 minutes after the planned arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space;
The Passenger is an employee of UA or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space; or
The Passenger does not present him/herself at the loading gate for boarding at least 15 minutes prior to scheduled domestic departures, and 30 minutes prior to scheduled international departures. See Rule 5 D) for additional information regarding boarding cut-off times.
The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with the requirements in this Contract of Carriage Requirements regarding ticketing, check-in, reconfirmation procedures, and acceptance for transportation;
The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares;
The Passenger is accommodated on Alternate Transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the Destination, not later than 60 minutes after the planned arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space;
The Passenger is an employee of UA or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space; or
The Passenger does not present him/herself at the loading gate for boarding at least 15 minutes prior to scheduled domestic departures, and 30 minutes prior to scheduled international departures. See Rule 5 D) for additional information regarding boarding cut-off times.
5. Payment Time and Form for Passengers Traveling Between Points within the United States or from the United States to a Foreign Point
[/INDENT]a. Compensation in the form of check will be made by UA on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA. However, when UA has arranged, for the Passenger’s convenience, Alternate Transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter.
b. UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.
6. Limitation of Liability - If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is accepted by the Passenger, such payment will constitute full compensation for all actual or anticipatory damages incurred or to be incurred by the Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is not accepted, UA’s liability is limited to actual damages proved not to exceed 1350 USD per Ticketed Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. Passenger will be responsible for providing documentation of all actual damages claimed. UA shall not be liable for any punitive, consequential or special damages arising out of or in connection with UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space.b. UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.
B. Denied Boarding Non-U.S.A./Canada Flight Origin - Where there is an Oversold UA flight that originates outside the U.S.A. or Canada, no compensation will be provided except where required by local or international laws regulating Oversold flights.
Involuntary Denied Boarding on Baby's First Flight
Sep 23, 16, 4:21 pm
#151
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 69,211
As to your point, the words Destination and Stopover are defined in the COC. Destination is the ultimate point of the journey shown on the ticket. Stopover means any deliberate interruption in travel by passenger that is agreed to in advance by United. In my case, based on these definitions, Houston is the Stopover.
And, despite you saying that the contract was for one big price for the whole thing, there are, in fact, details available to you during the purchase process and in the receipt showing the split of the fare.
Good luck and maybe you can convince the judge, but when UA produces the receipt showing the fare breakdown of two different one-way fares combined to create the full price I think you're potentially going to have troubles.
This may be a silly question (I'm not a lawyer), but is it possible to research this witness and see if he/she played a part in a previous case that may have set precedent? For that matter, is it possible to research these kind of case specifics to confirm/deny any precedent at all?
Sep 23, 16, 4:45 pm
#152
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: St. Louis, MO - AA PLT/2.98MM (Lifetime PLT), Delta PM, SPG Gold, AMEX Plat
Programs: TW Elite (RIP), CO OnePass
Posts: 1,923
Nope. Houston is the destination, not a stopover, of the first fare component. Memphis is the destination of the second fare component.
And, despite you saying that the contract was for one big price for the whole thing, there are, in fact, details available to you during the purchase process and in the receipt showing the split of the fare.
And, despite you saying that the contract was for one big price for the whole thing, there are, in fact, details available to you during the purchase process and in the receipt showing the split of the fare.
Stopovers are an old concept which are rarely offered today (especially on domestic tickets). An example of a stopover would have been if you flew MEM-DFW, spent a few days in DFW and then continued DFW-IAH.
Greg
Sep 23, 16, 4:54 pm
#153
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 37,740
My point here is that however United constructed my roundtrip fare for purposes of their backend accounting/planning/reporting, it is irrelevant because I wasn't privy to it and thus could not have agreed to it. Paragraph 25 of the COC says that if there is a fare to the first Stopover, the IDB multiplier will be based on that amount. If no Stopover fare exists, then the Destination fare is used. My argument is that for a binding Stopover fare to exist, I would have had to agree to it.
Sep 23, 16, 6:14 pm
#154
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDX
Programs: kayaker
Posts: 851
OP:
Would you mind sharing whether United's "lowball" offer is potentially calculated based off 400% of the one-way fare? I was pulling for you in this suit, but I have to agree with some of the recent posts: it seems like you're stretching to try to get quite a bit more than you're supposed to.
I suppose that even if you are able to make a contract law argument that twists things to support your position, it still violates common sense. However I guess common sense in litigation went out the window a long time ago....
Still, good luck! and keep us posted.
Would you mind sharing whether United's "lowball" offer is potentially calculated based off 400% of the one-way fare? I was pulling for you in this suit, but I have to agree with some of the recent posts: it seems like you're stretching to try to get quite a bit more than you're supposed to.
I suppose that even if you are able to make a contract law argument that twists things to support your position, it still violates common sense. However I guess common sense in litigation went out the window a long time ago....
Still, good luck! and keep us posted.
Sep 23, 16, 9:27 pm
#155
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 42
Nope. Houston is the destination, not a stopover, of the first fare component. Memphis is the destination of the second fare component.
And, despite you saying that the contract was for one big price for the whole thing, there are, in fact, details available to you during the purchase process and in the receipt showing the split of the fare.
Good luck and maybe you can convince the judge, but when UA produces the receipt showing the fare breakdown of two different one-way fares combined to create the full price I think you're potentially going to have troubles.
IIRC small claims court doesn't define precedent for bigger cases. But I'm not a lawyer so I might be completely wrong on that.
And, despite you saying that the contract was for one big price for the whole thing, there are, in fact, details available to you during the purchase process and in the receipt showing the split of the fare.
Good luck and maybe you can convince the judge, but when UA produces the receipt showing the fare breakdown of two different one-way fares combined to create the full price I think you're potentially going to have troubles.
IIRC small claims court doesn't define precedent for bigger cases. But I'm not a lawyer so I might be completely wrong on that.
This is correct. You did not buy a ticket MEM-MEM, you bought a roundtrip ticket MEM-IAH. MEM is the origin, IAH is the destination on the outbound and vice versa on the return.
Stopovers are an old concept which are rarely offered today (especially on domestic tickets). An example of a stopover would have been if you flew MEM-DFW, spent a few days in DFW and then continued DFW-IAH.
Greg
Stopovers are an old concept which are rarely offered today (especially on domestic tickets). An example of a stopover would have been if you flew MEM-DFW, spent a few days in DFW and then continued DFW-IAH.
Greg
The COC is an adhesion contract. If a provision is sufficiently "hidden" it will not be enforceable, generally speaking.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Sep 23, 16 at 10:57 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member -- please use multi-quote
Sep 23, 16, 9:35 pm
#156
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Plat, AS MVP, HH Gold, MR Gold
Posts: 1,848
):Code:
/FC SEA UA X/HOU UA BOS 122.79KAA14AXN UA X/HOU UA SEA 122.79KAA14AXN USD 245.58 END ZP SEA IAH BOS IAH XT18.42US16.00ZP11.20AY18.00XF SEA4.5IAH4.5BOS4.5IAH4.5
Based on what you've said here, I think you have a very strong case for getting that first number in your fare, times four, twice, for each of you and your wife, plus the refund. I like your argument that UA did not limit their liability by making a proactive offer after the first IDB, so their liability is not limited by your actions, but you may need to argue this (but IANAL). I also think you have strong case that your wife was not offered a seat, but you may need to have your wife testify to that effect.
I can appreciate what you are getting at with your argument that UA shouldn't be able to limit their liability to the outbound sector when the pricing of the outbound sector incurs requirements to not just buy but use the return sector. I can see that it would be fun to argue (if you liked making clever arguments in court, which I imagine most litigators do...), but if UA offered me 16 times the outbound fare component plus $100, I'd take it.
Is there any aspect of sanctions for 1) the failure to provide required statement of rights 2) failure to provide required alternate routing or 3) failure to provide required cash payment that is collectable by you in state court, or is that all between UA and DOT?
Sep 23, 16, 9:47 pm
#157
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 42
OP:
Would you mind sharing whether United's "lowball" offer is potentially calculated based off 400% of the one-way fare? I was pulling for you in this suit, but I have to agree with some of the recent posts: it seems like you're stretching to try to get quite a bit more than you're supposed to.
I suppose that even if you are able to make a contract law argument that twists things to support your position, it still violates common sense. However I guess common sense in litigation went out the window a long time ago....
Still, good luck! and keep us posted.
Would you mind sharing whether United's "lowball" offer is potentially calculated based off 400% of the one-way fare? I was pulling for you in this suit, but I have to agree with some of the recent posts: it seems like you're stretching to try to get quite a bit more than you're supposed to.
I suppose that even if you are able to make a contract law argument that twists things to support your position, it still violates common sense. However I guess common sense in litigation went out the window a long time ago....
Still, good luck! and keep us posted.
It's not a matter of common sense or twisting words. The COC says what it says. With regard to the lowball, yeah they used a one way fare from Mem-IAH, but they completely left off any payment to my wife. They basically repeated the final offer that the United customer service rep made prior to the lawsuit.
The way to figure this out for an old ticket is to go to the saudia website, click manage bookings, select e-ticket and enter your 16-digit ticket number, and scroll down to your fare construction. For one of my flights last month, an SEA-BOS-SEA roundtrip, I had (we can admire my fare later ):
This shows the price for each fare component. If I were IDB'd on the way to BOS, based on my reading of the CoC, I would expect compensation in the amount of 4*122.79, the price of the first fare component (marked by the first fare code). (I will say that I think UA could be more forthcoming about this breakdown during the purchase and ticketing process.)
Based on what you've said here, I think you have a very strong case for getting that first number in your fare, times four, twice, for each of you and your wife, plus the refund. I like your argument that UA did not limit their liability by making a proactive offer after the first IDB, so their liability is not limited by your actions, but you may need to argue this (but IANAL). I also think you have strong case that your wife was not offered a seat, but you may need to have your wife testify to that effect.
I can appreciate what you are getting at with your argument that UA shouldn't be able to limit their liability to the outbound sector when the pricing of the outbound sector incurs requirements to not just buy but use the return sector. I can see that it would be fun to argue (if you liked making clever arguments in court, which I imagine most litigators do...), but if UA offered me 16 times the outbound fare component plus $100, I'd take it.
Is there any aspect of sanctions for 1) the failure to provide required statement of rights 2) failure to provide required alternate routing or 3) failure to provide required cash payment that is collectable by you in state court, or is that all between UA and DOT?
):Code:
/FC SEA UA X/HOU UA BOS 122.79KAA14AXN UA X/HOU UA SEA 122.79KAA14AXN USD 245.58 END ZP SEA IAH BOS IAH XT18.42US16.00ZP11.20AY18.00XF SEA4.5IAH4.5BOS4.5IAH4.5
Based on what you've said here, I think you have a very strong case for getting that first number in your fare, times four, twice, for each of you and your wife, plus the refund. I like your argument that UA did not limit their liability by making a proactive offer after the first IDB, so their liability is not limited by your actions, but you may need to argue this (but IANAL). I also think you have strong case that your wife was not offered a seat, but you may need to have your wife testify to that effect.
I can appreciate what you are getting at with your argument that UA shouldn't be able to limit their liability to the outbound sector when the pricing of the outbound sector incurs requirements to not just buy but use the return sector. I can see that it would be fun to argue (if you liked making clever arguments in court, which I imagine most litigators do...), but if UA offered me 16 times the outbound fare component plus $100, I'd take it.
Is there any aspect of sanctions for 1) the failure to provide required statement of rights 2) failure to provide required alternate routing or 3) failure to provide required cash payment that is collectable by you in state court, or is that all between UA and DOT?
With regard to sanctions, that is between UA and DOT. I'm entitled to damages for UA's breach of the COC only.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Sep 23, 16 at 10:57 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member -- please use multi-quote
Sep 23, 16, 10:20 pm
#158
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,116
Thanks for the encouragement and advice!
As to your point, the words Destination and Stopover are defined in the COC. Destination is the ultimate point of the journey shown on the ticket. Stopover means any deliberate interruption in travel by passenger that is agreed to in advance by United. In my case, based on these definitions, Houston is the Stopover. Regardless, United contends that there is a fare associated with the Houston leg, despite the fact that I never agreed to any such fare and no such fare was ever stated on my ticket. Certainly a one way fare exists from MEM to IAH, but United makes it clear that the pricing of tickets is meant to include all travel associated with the tickets and expressly forbids passengers from taking advantage of the of fare discrepancies in multi-stop tickets, i.e "hidden cities" and "throw away ticketing." United cannot ban this practice for passengers but take advantage of it to lower liability on IDB situations.
Had the fare breakdown in my ticket said MEM to IAH- $150, IAH to MEM- $170, then clearly the fare subject to the multiplier would be $150 since that is what we agreed to as a fare to Houston. In reality, my ticket said MEM-IAH-MEM - $320 and I never saw or agreed to the value United assigned to the Houston flight only. As such, there is no valid Stopover fare and, per the COC, if there is no Stopover fare, the fare to the destination is used in the multiplier.
As to your point, the words Destination and Stopover are defined in the COC. Destination is the ultimate point of the journey shown on the ticket. Stopover means any deliberate interruption in travel by passenger that is agreed to in advance by United. In my case, based on these definitions, Houston is the Stopover. Regardless, United contends that there is a fare associated with the Houston leg, despite the fact that I never agreed to any such fare and no such fare was ever stated on my ticket. Certainly a one way fare exists from MEM to IAH, but United makes it clear that the pricing of tickets is meant to include all travel associated with the tickets and expressly forbids passengers from taking advantage of the of fare discrepancies in multi-stop tickets, i.e "hidden cities" and "throw away ticketing." United cannot ban this practice for passengers but take advantage of it to lower liability on IDB situations.
Had the fare breakdown in my ticket said MEM to IAH- $150, IAH to MEM- $170, then clearly the fare subject to the multiplier would be $150 since that is what we agreed to as a fare to Houston. In reality, my ticket said MEM-IAH-MEM - $320 and I never saw or agreed to the value United assigned to the Houston flight only. As such, there is no valid Stopover fare and, per the COC, if there is no Stopover fare, the fare to the destination is used in the multiplier.
Memphis is your origin. Houston is your destination. You bought roundtrip travel without a stopover.
DOT doesn't usually have fines for passengers issues for a single event, but rather a pattern or repeated events.
Sep 23, 16, 10:20 pm
#159
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1K 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott Ti, LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 53,448
Sep 23, 16, 10:49 pm
#160
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Plat, AS MVP, HH Gold, MR Gold
Posts: 1,848
But it's not like UA is trying to hide the relative fare components. The default ticket search on united.com quotes fares each way (based on round-trip purchase), and these are accurate and transparent. During an online booking, there is also the option to view the fare rules, which shows your fare (but not price, but if you know the fare ordering, you can figure out which component is larger). This was only not transparent in your case because you booked over the phone, but I'm certain they would have told you; it is tough to know where to draw the line between making booking transactions convenient and reading every buyer the entire fare rules and CoC on every transaction.
Then go get 'em! I wouldn't know whether to push the point of whether there was actually an empty seat or cleared standby who took your wife's confirmed seat when she declined it, or just stand with my wife's direct testimony that "I was never offered the opportunity to board," but I bet you do.
Last edited by PVDProf; Sep 23, 16 at 11:14 pm
Sep 23, 16, 10:49 pm
#161
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: CHS
Programs: UA GS, Bonvoy Amabassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 2,530
Thanks! I have heard of that Saudi site, but haven't looked at it. So is this the only place that a customer would be able to find the fare construction? United never provided anything comparable to me prior to my flight which is why I'm contending that no enforceable Mem-IAH fare can exist.
With regard to sanctions, that is between UA and DOT. I'm entitled to damages for UA's breach of the COC only.
With regard to sanctions, that is between UA and DOT. I'm entitled to damages for UA's breach of the COC only.
The second email is your receipt and it has a chart - from a recent ticket, mine looks like this:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/attac...1&d=1474692463
I have no idea if every person gets it or only mileage plus members etc, but that is what I get after buying a ticket in my receipt
Sep 23, 16, 11:16 pm
#162
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDX
Programs: kayaker
Posts: 851
Thanks! I have heard of that Saudi site, but haven't looked at it. So is this the only place that a customer would be able to find the fare construction? United never provided anything comparable to me prior to my flight which is why I'm contending that no enforceable Mem-IAH fare can exist.
I did find in the CoC the following definition:
Half Round Trip Fare means 50 percent of a specified or constructed round trip normal or special fare. In the absence of a specified or constructed round trip normal fare, the one way normal fare is considered to be a half round trip normal fare. If a specified or constructed one way special fare may be doubled to establish a round trip special fare, the one way special fare is considered to be a half round trip special fare.
(emphasis mine)It seems reasonable that they could cite this definition and push for your compensation to be built off half the roundtrip fare. In your example of $320 MEM-IAH-MEM, you should be awarded ($320/2 = $160)*(400%/IDB*2IDBs)*(2 passengers) = $160*16 = $2560.
How much are you asking for?
Sep 23, 16, 11:26 pm
#163
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: PDX
Programs: kayaker
Posts: 851
When you buy a ticket, they send you 2 emails, first email is a goofy, you bought a ticket maybe email
The second email is your receipt and it has a chart - from a recent ticket, mine looks like this:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/attac...1&d=1474692463
I have no idea if every person gets it or only mileage plus members etc, but that is what I get after buying a ticket in my receipt
The second email is your receipt and it has a chart - from a recent ticket, mine looks like this:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/attac...1&d=1474692463
I have no idea if every person gets it or only mileage plus members etc, but that is what I get after buying a ticket in my receipt
A better "argument" from United's side is that when you go through and purchase your ticket, the cost of each segment of a multi-city (incl. r/t) itinerary is displayed prominently in whole dollar amounts for each segment. After clicking through to select all segments, the total price no longer shows the breakdown, and the final email receipt similarly does not give the fare basis for each leg.
I still don't think the OP's argument will stand, but he has more of a point than I was initially willing to concede.
And, despite you saying that the contract was for one big price for the whole thing, there are, in fact, details available to you during the purchase process and in the receipt showing the split of the fare.
Good luck and maybe you can convince the judge, but when UA produces the receipt showing the fare breakdown of two different one-way fares combined to create the full price I think you're potentially going to have troubles.
Good luck and maybe you can convince the judge, but when UA produces the receipt showing the fare breakdown of two different one-way fares combined to create the full price I think you're potentially going to have troubles.
Sep 23, 16, 11:30 pm
#164
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,116
When you buy a ticket, they send you 2 emails, first email is a goofy, you bought a ticket maybe email
The second email is your receipt and it has a chart - from a recent ticket, mine looks like this:
...
I have no idea if every person gets it or only mileage plus members etc, but that is what I get after buying a ticket in my receipt
The second email is your receipt and it has a chart - from a recent ticket, mine looks like this:
...
I have no idea if every person gets it or only mileage plus members etc, but that is what I get after buying a ticket in my receipt
It seems reasonable that they could cite this definition and push for your compensation to be built off half the roundtrip fare. In your example of $320 MEM-IAH-MEM, you should be awarded ($320/2 = $160)*(400%/IDB*2IDBs)*(2 passengers) = $160*16 = $2560.
How much are you asking for?
How much are you asking for?
Last edited by mduell; Sep 23, 16 at 11:40 pm
Sep 23, 16, 11:40 pm
#165
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: CHS
Programs: UA GS, Bonvoy Amabassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 2,530
OK, fair enough
To this same point, I buy 95% one way fares as changing the second half of a RT ticket is a GIANT PITA, even a refundable fare is horrid cause you never know what your residual will be, and I typically have to change it several times and SDC really isn't feasible as I may have to change destinations most times.
But that chart is typically pretty close for what the airlines give me for residual value after flying half the ticket
To this same point, I buy 95% one way fares as changing the second half of a RT ticket is a GIANT PITA, even a refundable fare is horrid cause you never know what your residual will be, and I typically have to change it several times and SDC really isn't feasible as I may have to change destinations most times.
But that chart is typically pretty close for what the airlines give me for residual value after flying half the ticket
