Nov 7, 2015, 1:37 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
DoT is proposing new IDB rules effective 21 April 2021
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DoT's 14 CFR Part 250 - OVERSALES
DoT's WRITTEN EXPLANATION OF DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION AND BOARDING PRIORITIES
DoT's A Consumer Guide to Air Travel -- see Overbooking
UA's Contact of Carriage -- see RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
IMPORTANT: Per the DOT reg linked above, IDB compensation only applies if the flight is oversold.
-- There must be a request for volunteers
-- The IDBed individual must be given a written explanation
-- Compensation must be in cash or check form unless passengers agrees to other method
-- Delay is to destination or first stopover (a deliberate interruption of a journey by the passenger, scheduled to exceed 4 hours)
Domestic Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 2 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 2 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
International Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 4 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 4 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
Exemptions
UA provided the following in its United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report
FAQS
As a cleared Standby passenger, am I protect / due compensation if IDB'ed?
Appears no
My DOT contact just replied with similar information. He's a recently retired DOT official who spent his career handling these types of issues and interacting with the public. He gave me permission to post his response.
================================================== =
DoT's 14 CFR Part 250 - OVERSALES
DoT's WRITTEN EXPLANATION OF DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION AND BOARDING PRIORITIES
DoT's A Consumer Guide to Air Travel -- see Overbooking
UA's Contact of Carriage -- see RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
IMPORTANT: Per the DOT reg linked above, IDB compensation only applies if the flight is oversold.
-- There must be a request for volunteers
-- The IDBed individual must be given a written explanation
-- Compensation must be in cash or check form unless passengers agrees to other method
-- Delay is to destination or first stopover (a deliberate interruption of a journey by the passenger, scheduled to exceed 4 hours)
Domestic Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 2 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 2 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
International Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 4 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 4 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of “denied boarding compensation” from the airline unless:
(1) you have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
(2) you are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
(3) you are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
(4) on a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
(5) you are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
(6) the airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.
(1) you have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
(2) you are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
(3) you are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
(4) on a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
(5) you are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
(6) the airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Rule 25 Denied Boarding Compensation
A. Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:1. Request for Volunteersa. UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
2. Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:a. Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
b. The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
3. Transportation for Passengers Denied Boarding - When UA is unable to provide previously confirmed space due to an Oversold flight, UA will provide transportation to such Passengers who have been denied boarding whether voluntarily or involuntarily in accordance with the provisions below.a. UA will transport the Passenger on its own flight to the Destination without Stopover on its next flight on which space is available at no additional cost to the Passenger, regardless of class of service.
b. If space is available on another Carrier’s flight regardless of class of service, such flights may be used upon United’s sole discretion and the Passenger’s request at no additional cost to the Passenger only if such flight provides an earlier arrival than the UA flight offered in 3) a) above.
4. Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarilya. For passengers traveling in interstate transportation between points within the United States, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
b. For passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a U.S. airport at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
c. For passengers traveling from Canada to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a Canadian airport with a maximum of 200 CAD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight with a maximum of 300 CAD. At the passenger’s request, compensation in the form of check, wire transfer, visa card, or a travel voucher will be made by UA, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA.
d. EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:i. The flight is cancelled;
ii. The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with the requirements in this Contract of Carriage Requirements regarding ticketing, check-in, reconfirmation procedures, and acceptance for transportation;
iii. The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
iv. The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares;
v. The Passenger is accommodated on Alternate Transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the Destination, not later than 60 minutes after the planned arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space;
vi. The Passenger is an employee of UA or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space; or
vii. The Passenger does not present him/herself at the loading gate for boarding at least 15 minutes prior to scheduled domestic departures, and 30 minutes prior to scheduled international departures. See Rule 5 D) for additional information regarding boarding cut-off times.
5. Payment Time and Form for Passengers Traveling Between Points within the United States or from the United States to a Foreign Pointa. Compensation in the form of check will be made by UA on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA. However, when UA has arranged, for the Passenger’s convenience, Alternate Transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter.
b. UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.
6. Limitation of Liability - If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is accepted by the Passenger, such payment will constitute full compensation for all actual or anticipatory damages incurred or to be incurred by the Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is not accepted, UA’s liability is limited to actual damages proved not to exceed 1350 USD per Ticketed Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. Passenger will be responsible for providing documentation of all actual damages claimed. UA shall not be liable for any punitive, consequential or special damages arising out of or in connection with UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space.
B. Denied Boarding Non-U.S.A./Canada Flight Origin - Where there is an Oversold UA flight that originates outside the U.S.A. or Canada, no compensation will be provided except where required by local or international laws regulating Oversold flights.
A. Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:1. Request for Volunteersa. UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
2. Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:a. Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
b. The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
3. Transportation for Passengers Denied Boarding - When UA is unable to provide previously confirmed space due to an Oversold flight, UA will provide transportation to such Passengers who have been denied boarding whether voluntarily or involuntarily in accordance with the provisions below.a. UA will transport the Passenger on its own flight to the Destination without Stopover on its next flight on which space is available at no additional cost to the Passenger, regardless of class of service.
b. If space is available on another Carrier’s flight regardless of class of service, such flights may be used upon United’s sole discretion and the Passenger’s request at no additional cost to the Passenger only if such flight provides an earlier arrival than the UA flight offered in 3) a) above.
4. Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarilya. For passengers traveling in interstate transportation between points within the United States, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
b. For passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a U.S. airport at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
c. For passengers traveling from Canada to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a Canadian airport with a maximum of 200 CAD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight with a maximum of 300 CAD. At the passenger’s request, compensation in the form of check, wire transfer, visa card, or a travel voucher will be made by UA, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA.
d. EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:i. The flight is cancelled;
ii. The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with the requirements in this Contract of Carriage Requirements regarding ticketing, check-in, reconfirmation procedures, and acceptance for transportation;
iii. The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
iv. The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares;
v. The Passenger is accommodated on Alternate Transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the Destination, not later than 60 minutes after the planned arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space;
vi. The Passenger is an employee of UA or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space; or
vii. The Passenger does not present him/herself at the loading gate for boarding at least 15 minutes prior to scheduled domestic departures, and 30 minutes prior to scheduled international departures. See Rule 5 D) for additional information regarding boarding cut-off times.
5. Payment Time and Form for Passengers Traveling Between Points within the United States or from the United States to a Foreign Pointa. Compensation in the form of check will be made by UA on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA. However, when UA has arranged, for the Passenger’s convenience, Alternate Transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter.
b. UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.
6. Limitation of Liability - If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is accepted by the Passenger, such payment will constitute full compensation for all actual or anticipatory damages incurred or to be incurred by the Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is not accepted, UA’s liability is limited to actual damages proved not to exceed 1350 USD per Ticketed Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. Passenger will be responsible for providing documentation of all actual damages claimed. UA shall not be liable for any punitive, consequential or special damages arising out of or in connection with UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space.
B. Denied Boarding Non-U.S.A./Canada Flight Origin - Where there is an Oversold UA flight that originates outside the U.S.A. or Canada, no compensation will be provided except where required by local or international laws regulating Oversold flights.
Involuntary Denied Boarding (IDB) Selection Process
United's involuntary denied boarding (IDB) process is automated and customers are not subject to discretionary choice by agents. This is our process:
United's involuntary denied boarding (IDB) process is automated and customers are not subject to discretionary choice by agents. This is our process:
- First, agents will deny boarding if a passenger does not have a seat assignment prior to boarding the aircraft.
- Customers are then sorted by fare class (estimated fare paid) and type of itinerary.
- Customers with the lowest paid fare are placed at the top of the list for involuntary denial of boarding.
- If a group of customers paid the same fare, then the group is sorted by time of check-in.
- Customers with frequent flyer status will not be involuntarily denied boarding, unless all of the remaining passengers have frequent flyer status, in which case the lowest status will move to the top of the IDB list.
- Customers with special needs (unaccompanied minors, passengers with disabilities) are excluded and are not involuntarily denied boarding.
As a cleared Standby passenger, am I protect / due compensation if IDB'ed?
Appears no
The DOT representative responded to me today and said that United's interpretation is correct. 14 CFR 250 only applies to confirmed reserved space, which does not cover standby passengers. So kudos to those here who knew!
It is an interesting interpretation because when I was given a BP, my reservation on the later flight was cancelled. So does that mean that technically at that moment I had no confirmed, reserved space on any flight? Maybe flying standby to leave early is riskier than I thought!
…
It is an interesting interpretation because when I was given a BP, my reservation on the later flight was cancelled. So does that mean that technically at that moment I had no confirmed, reserved space on any flight? Maybe flying standby to leave early is riskier than I thought!
…
Although Part 250 uses (and defines) the term “confirmed reserved space,” neither DOT, nor to my knowledge the industry, has distinguished between a reservation that is confirmed and one that is not. DOT has never acknowledged the existence of a reservation that is not confirmed. You either have a reservation or you don’t. In that sense, the word “confirmed” in the term “confirmed reserved space” (a term that goes back to the original Part 250 that was enacted fifty years ago) is redundant.
When a standby passenger is boarded – even with a seat assignment and boarding pass – this does not constitute issuing him/her confirmed reserved space. I see nothing in the definition of “confirmed reserved space” in section 250.1 that implies that clearing standby gives a passenger “confirmed reserved space.” When a flight is oversold, airlines make every effort to ensure that individuals who need to be bumped involuntarily will be denied boarding before they are boarded. That’s simply the easiest way for everyone – the airline and the passengers. But occasionally a standby passenger needs to be removed after having been boarded. That does not entitle that passenger to the protections of Part 250, as he/she never had a reservation.
Part 250 doesn’t say that passengers can’t be bumped after being boarded.
When a standby passenger is boarded – even with a seat assignment and boarding pass – this does not constitute issuing him/her confirmed reserved space. I see nothing in the definition of “confirmed reserved space” in section 250.1 that implies that clearing standby gives a passenger “confirmed reserved space.” When a flight is oversold, airlines make every effort to ensure that individuals who need to be bumped involuntarily will be denied boarding before they are boarded. That’s simply the easiest way for everyone – the airline and the passengers. But occasionally a standby passenger needs to be removed after having been boarded. That does not entitle that passenger to the protections of Part 250, as he/she never had a reservation.
Part 250 doesn’t say that passengers can’t be bumped after being boarded.
The changing story of IDB on UA since the merge and post-Dao
source: BTS Data
source: BTS Data
Code:
IDB/VDB data for UA 1st Qtr Year VDB IDB 2019 8,856 14 2018 8,214 27 2017 15,917 900 2016 14,380 929 2015 17,373 1,817 2014 21,469 4,395 2013 14,095 2,592
Is this IDB? Am I entitled to IDB compensation? [Consolidated]
Jul 3, 2019, 8:43 am
#301
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: GIG - YYC - SVO
Programs: Lost it all and don't care
Posts: 945
Conversely, one could argue the relevant compensation laws for varying degrees of inconvenience created BY THE CARRIER would result in them to make egregious decisions just to save money.
iMHO this is exactly what occured here. Removing a part from UA1143 to keep UA1663 on it's way to PUJ was the CHEAPEST of the the options to their bottom line. If it is happening enough that they took this approach........heh..........another thread subject.
Now, if that is their attitude, and I believe nothing has really changed at UA in regards to how corporate views pax, it points to do other issues which are probably the subject of many threads here already......no ?
It was not the morally correct decision however. The plane that breaks is carrying the pax who need to wait.
Having been subject to weather, mechanical, and emergency medical delays I understand that statistically they will occur. Having been forced to sit in MIA for 7 hours and then overnight in ORD finally arriving some 24 hours later because a juvenile delinquent in operations did this makes my blood boil. Especially for their initial offer of a $75 ETC. Apparently UA values our time at far less than the minimum wage of a server. If they could have seen the medical professionals (of which my wife is one) scrambling to contact their hospitals and offices to cancel appointments and procedures, the other pax dealing with their issues, versus what as probably a bunch of holiday pax on their way to PUJ they might think twice, but I doubt it.
I feel sorry for their station staff, who were pleasant and helpful, as I could tell that they knew they were stuck in the middle of a very bad situation that their employer caused.
iMHO this is exactly what occured here. Removing a part from UA1143 to keep UA1663 on it's way to PUJ was the CHEAPEST of the the options to their bottom line. If it is happening enough that they took this approach........heh..........another thread subject.
Now, if that is their attitude, and I believe nothing has really changed at UA in regards to how corporate views pax, it points to do other issues which are probably the subject of many threads here already......no ?
It was not the morally correct decision however. The plane that breaks is carrying the pax who need to wait.
Having been subject to weather, mechanical, and emergency medical delays I understand that statistically they will occur. Having been forced to sit in MIA for 7 hours and then overnight in ORD finally arriving some 24 hours later because a juvenile delinquent in operations did this makes my blood boil. Especially for their initial offer of a $75 ETC. Apparently UA values our time at far less than the minimum wage of a server. If they could have seen the medical professionals (of which my wife is one) scrambling to contact their hospitals and offices to cancel appointments and procedures, the other pax dealing with their issues, versus what as probably a bunch of holiday pax on their way to PUJ they might think twice, but I doubt it.
I feel sorry for their station staff, who were pleasant and helpful, as I could tell that they knew they were stuck in the middle of a very bad situation that their employer caused.
Last edited by KDS777; Jul 3, 2019 at 8:48 am
Jul 3, 2019, 8:54 am
#302
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,370
If they could have seen the medical professionals (of which my wife is one) scrambling to contact their hospitals and offices to cancel appointments and procedures, the other pax dealing with their issues, versus what as probably a bunch of holiday pax on their way to PUJ they might think twice, but I doubt it.
Expecting UA to weigh destinations vis-ŕ-vis one another in order to ascertain what people’s plans might have been is probably a little much to ask, and a great way for UA to generate additional bad press if they’re wrong.
I maintain that you’d feel differently about the situation if it had been your flight that had broken and they’d grabbed a part from a different plane.
Jul 3, 2019, 10:26 am
#303
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: GIG - YYC - SVO
Programs: Lost it all and don't care
Posts: 945
I would not expect them to grab a part from another plane which was loaded and ready to go. It's my luck of the draw, unfortunately.
If I did such an act in the businesses I have run, the personal ramifications to me would have been readily apparent, and most likely unpleasant.
We'll have to disagree on the other stuff, but that is really no matter as this is but an internet forum. If you know of a better airline that does long haul J to South America, please let me know. We are weighing our options after 19 years.
If I did such an act in the businesses I have run, the personal ramifications to me would have been readily apparent, and most likely unpleasant.
We'll have to disagree on the other stuff, but that is really no matter as this is but an internet forum. If you know of a better airline that does long haul J to South America, please let me know. We are weighing our options after 19 years.
Jul 3, 2019, 11:23 am
#304
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: HNL
Programs: UA GS4MM, MR LT Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 6,447
This is the mistake many on FT make - thinking you are entitled to compensation. None of the passengers are entitled to any compensation - but the algorithm kicked out $75 in goodwill compensation. So far, you've gotten $75 more than you are entitled. While it does seem on the light side, write customer care in a respectful manner, expressing disappointment, you missed this and that, the inconvenience, etc....They may (or may not) provide more goodwill compensation but if the money is that important, maybe it is time to move on and fly another carrier, but the grass is not always greener on the other side....
Jul 3, 2019, 1:35 pm
#305
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: ba silver
Posts: 728
Perhaps I wasn`t clear. I don`t favor any compensation for mx cancellations. That increases the cost for all of us. United made the decision that would inconvenience the least amount of passengers and aside from a small CS gesture OP is shouldn`t expect anything else. Where United failed is in getting the passengers to their destination with the least amount of delays, which in this case wold of meant on one of their alliance partners, Air Canada. I`ve been through my fair share of IROPS and find their is no consistency in how how passengers are treated. I`ve had United re-route on CX or SQ on award tickets back when years back and I`ve also had United agents in the States refuse to re-route me on AC codeshares even with a full F ticket. It seems to come down to whether or not the agent likes your face. Our new transport bill in Canada specifically excludes compensation for mx delays, as it should but will force airlines to re-route on other carriers, which costs them nothing as these things cancel each other out. The law also makes every airline involved in the journey responsible for getting you to your destination. There are plenty of posts on FT about passengers being bounced back and forth by two airlines, as well as getting different stories from different agents, such as being given only one option when the fare rules allow for other. This is what needs to stop and hopefully at least in Canada it will. And to repeat: I don`t favor any compensation; it`s about a level playing field when it comes to service recovery.
I could not disagree more. I enjoy low fares and am happy to pay the price in terms of the occasional delay. I feel bad for the OP, but it could have happened to any of us. (I’ve had a plane reassigned five minutes prior to boarding, but, admittedly, never after boarding had commenced)...
If OP were on the diverted flight, we’d have a story about how great UA’s customer service was. Everything’s relative.
As I said in my above post. It`s not about compensation; no law should require an airline to pay as in the end we will all pay more. What needs to be legislated is how passengers are treated when delays happen. Re-booking on another airline costs nothing to the industry, it just requires employees to make more of an effort. If all airlines cancel flights equally then purchasing tickets on other airline will just cancel itself out. If in the long run one airline pays out a lot more, then that airline needs to start running their operation better. A law like this will simply level the playing field in terms of what passengers can expect when things go wrong.
I could not disagree more. I enjoy low fares and am happy to pay the price in terms of the occasional delay. I feel bad for the OP, but it could have happened to any of us. (I’ve had a plane reassigned five minutes prior to boarding, but, admittedly, never after boarding had commenced)...
If OP were on the diverted flight, we’d have a story about how great UA’s customer service was. Everything’s relative.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jul 3, 2019 at 2:01 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member
Jul 3, 2019, 3:48 pm
#306
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,370
You’re right, though; I did misunderstand, and I don’t find that particular requirement as odious.
Jul 4, 2019, 12:14 am
#307
Join Date: May 2015
Location: South Florida
Programs: DL Skymiles KE Skypass
Posts: 2,362
They could have rerouted you through a partner airline out of FLL (a 30 minute drive) like Air Canada. SuperShuttle is set up to transfer passengers for airlines on no notice from MIA.
Jul 5, 2019, 11:11 am
#308
Join Date: Jan 2017
Programs: UA
Posts: 324
I could not disagree more. I enjoy low fares and am happy to pay the price in terms of the occasional delay. I feel bad for the OP, but it could have happened to any of us. (I’ve had a plane reassigned five minutes prior to boarding, but, admittedly, never after boarding had commenced)...
If OP were on the diverted flight, we’d have a story about how great UA’s customer service was. Everything’s relative.
Jun 27, 2023, 2:09 pm
#309
Join Date: Oct 2008
Programs: SPG PLT, HH Gold
Posts: 202
IDB Shenanigans
Bottom line, United removed me from my paid Polaris SFO-EWR seat on an oversold flight then lied about it.
So I was traveling SFO-EWR-YOW today. After getting to the lounge, my Google Wallet boarding pass from an hour prior didn't work. The lounge agent said I was now on the redeye to ORD with a afternoon connection to YOW. However, there were still seats on the morning EWR-YOW flight, which would have gotten me in way earlier.
The lounge manage then lied and said I changed the flight. Sadly my boarding pass was in Google Wallet, so I couldn't show a timestamp to prove otherwise.
Please help! How should I handle this. Can I get IDB here?
So I was traveling SFO-EWR-YOW today. After getting to the lounge, my Google Wallet boarding pass from an hour prior didn't work. The lounge agent said I was now on the redeye to ORD with a afternoon connection to YOW. However, there were still seats on the morning EWR-YOW flight, which would have gotten me in way earlier.
The lounge manage then lied and said I changed the flight. Sadly my boarding pass was in Google Wallet, so I couldn't show a timestamp to prove otherwise.
Please help! How should I handle this. Can I get IDB here?
Jun 27, 2023, 2:13 pm
#310
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 11,453
(reposting from other double post)
More information is needed to understand what happened. If you are comfortable sharing, which were the flights originally booked?
Perhaps the SFO-EWR was delayed such that it would cause a misconnect at EWR. That is one reason you might have been rebooked "involuntarily", but it is a legitimate one.
edit: after taking a quick look, all of UA's EWR-YOW flights today appear to be cancelled. That is another valid reason to rebook you.
More information is needed to understand what happened. If you are comfortable sharing, which were the flights originally booked?
Perhaps the SFO-EWR was delayed such that it would cause a misconnect at EWR. That is one reason you might have been rebooked "involuntarily", but it is a legitimate one.
edit: after taking a quick look, all of UA's EWR-YOW flights today appear to be cancelled. That is another valid reason to rebook you.
Jun 27, 2023, 2:16 pm
#311
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,370
So I was traveling SFO-EWR-YOW today. After getting to the lounge, my Google Wallet boarding pass from an hour prior didn't work. The lounge agent said I was now on the redeye to ORD with a afternoon connection to YOW. However, there were still seats on the morning EWR-YOW flight, which would have gotten me in way earlier.
The lounge manage then lied and said I changed the flight. Sadly my boarding pass was in Google Wallet, so I couldn't show a timestamp to prove otherwise.
The lounge manage then lied and said I changed the flight. Sadly my boarding pass was in Google Wallet, so I couldn't show a timestamp to prove otherwise.
Jun 27, 2023, 2:17 pm
#312
Join Date: Oct 2008
Programs: SPG PLT, HH Gold
Posts: 202
Yes this is true. But the best routing would have been to change the EWR to YOW leg to tomorrow morning.
Instead of doing that, they gave me an awful routing with an inferior product in order to get me off the oversold flight.
Ok well it's the new polaris seat.
Not ok under any circumstances imo.
The "proactive" change was mighty convenient for United and was a horrible change for me. They should have just moved the EWR to YOW leg
Instead of doing that, they gave me an awful routing with an inferior product in order to get me off the oversold flight.
United doesn't offer Polaris service on SFO-EWR. And would whatever happened be OK if you'd been upgraded rather than paying cash?
Huh? When were you originally scheduled? What dates and flight numbers? I'm not seeing any sensible connections on UA from SFO-EWR-YOW today, even without taking cancelations and delays into account -- which is almost certainly what happened; you got moved proactively due to the madness in the northeast.
Huh? When were you originally scheduled? What dates and flight numbers? I'm not seeing any sensible connections on UA from SFO-EWR-YOW today, even without taking cancelations and delays into account -- which is almost certainly what happened; you got moved proactively due to the madness in the northeast.
Not ok under any circumstances imo.
The "proactive" change was mighty convenient for United and was a horrible change for me. They should have just moved the EWR to YOW leg
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jun 27, 2023 at 3:38 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member
Jun 27, 2023, 2:24 pm
#314
Join Date: Oct 2008
Programs: SPG PLT, HH Gold
Posts: 202
The 11:00 am. It was delayed. Still the point is the best was way to get me there was to put me on tomorrow morning's EWR to YOW flight. There was no reason to take me off the SFO to EWR flight except to free up space.
Jun 27, 2023, 2:25 pm
#315
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,370
if you really want the EWR flight you were originally booked on, you may be able to get onto it if there is still space available, although if you start taking about "shenanigans" and "IDB" you're unlikely to get anywhere. Otherwise, if you want an EWR redeye, you'd need to find one with space available (I doubt there are any).
Incidentally, if it's not acceptable whether you were upgraded or paid cash, what's the point in specifying?