PHLGovFlyer

I need to book a quick trip EWR-HNL. I need to be in HNL all day January 29 and the morning of the 30th. I also need to be back at EWR before noon on the 31st.

If I go early and travel to HNL on the 27th I’ll take the N/S UA15. Checking return flights on the 30th I get lots of cheap options including the N/S and also the very well timed UA218 HNL-ORD and UA403 ORD-EWR. All of these price around $700.

When I check prices traveling out on the 28th and returning on the 30th many of the prices for the return flights are much higher, including the N/S. Obviously this is driven by minimum length of stay requirements. However, the options when taking UA218 are odd. If I connect at ORD on UA218 to UA 403 the price jumps to ~$2600. However if I connect UA218 to UA3461 the price is still ~$700. Why the big price difference if the LoS is the same?

BTW, every one of the coach fare buckets for 218, 403, and 3461 are >0.

Obviously I could just arrive at HNL earlier and enjoy myself, but I can’t really spare the time and I’d rather not have to pay for an unnecessary night at a hotel.

mherdeg

Probably fare rules rather than inventory. What fare bases are you getting with the cheaper trip and what do its rules say?

Something like this?:
Fun fact, the currently filed cheap UA Hawaii fares (BOS-OGG is great right now) allow stopovers at any UA hub for $55.81 (even better than the old DEN $55.81).

sbm12

Try pricing as multi-city and see what UA spots back. They definitely have some married segment logic which limits cheaper buckets on better connections but booking as multi-city can break that from time to time.

PHLGovFlyer

With the outbound flight on the 27th all the flights show as L fares, however, the earlier HNL-ORD-EWR (218-403) prices as a $659 L fare while the later flight (218-3461) prices as a $717 L fare. The pertinent fare rules for both fares are identical:

With the outbound flight on the 28th the outbound shows as an L while the return flights are a mix: The earlier 218-403 shows M and K fares respectively with a price of $2632. The later 218-3461 shows both as L fares for $717.

The fare rules for the cheaper 218-3461 are identical to those for the Wednesday departure flights I quoted above. The fare rules for the expensive 218-403 flights are:

I tried multi city but it gives the same $2632 for the earlier flights.

mherdeg

OK, I really think this is a 'fare' thing and not an 'inventory' thing.

I can reproduce your results with a matrix.itasoftware.com search like

Round trip
Depart date: Tuesday 1/27 or 1 day later
EWR:: UA /F BC=L
to HNL

Return date: Friday 1/30
HNL:: UA218 UA403 /F BC=L
to EWR

When I do this, ITA finds a round trip L fare with fare basis LDA14ADS , all-in price of $658.10.

Outbound:
Tuesday 1/27 UA15 EWR-HNL 0910-1529
Return:
Friday 1/30 UA218 HNL-ORD 1650-0503
Saturday 1/30 UA403 ORD-EWR 0748-1055

That fare carries, according to ITA, the following terms:
This is a 1/27 departure at 9:10 a.m., so I think this fare allows a return no sooner than 1/30 at 9:10 a.m. (which is fine, you are leaving at 4:50 p.m., not sure how time zones work out here).

Now let's look at what is happening with a 1/28 departure.

Round trip
Depart date: Wednesday 1/28
EWR:: UA /F BC=L
to HNL

Return date: Friday 1/30
HNL:: UA218 UA /F BC=L
to EWR

You ask - why do the search results include a $717 trip like this?

Outbound:
Wednesday 1/28 UA15 EWR-HNL 0910-1529
Return:
Friday 1/30 UA218 HNL-ORD 1650-0503
Saturday 1/31 A3461 ORD-EWR 1010-1319

This books into L, how is it allowed, you ask?

This is ADDING A STOPOVER -- you are allowed a stopover in any United hub for $55.81 on this fare. The price is $717 because it's just like the $658 base fare you saw for a Tuesday departure plus $55.81 (or so) for the fare rules.

With the regional-jet-return fare solution, travel for the last stopover (Chicago) occurs on 1/31 at 10:10 Chicago time, which is just barely longer than 3 days after the departure of 09:10 New York time on 1/28. That's still within the terms of the LDA14ADS fare.

Now, the trip you want -- UA218 UA403 -- is not eligible for the cheap fare basis LDA14ADS because the final part of the return portion, UA403, departs at 0748 Chicago time on Saturday 1/31. Even treating CHI as a stopover point, that departure is not a full 3 days after the departure of your outbound portion (which left at 0910 New York time on Wednesday 1/28)!

Does that make sense? I agree that this is really obscure. Also, again, the stopovers on these cheap Hawaii fares are a *really* good deal.

PHLGovFlyer

Does the term "TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO EARLIER THAN 3 DAYS AFTER DEPARTURE FROM FARE ORIGIN" mean 72 hours or does it mean 3 distinct calendar days (which could be slightly more than 48 hours if timed right)?

It is really obscure. I have a knack for finding these sorts of things.

You're right about the stopover being the difference, but I don't think it has anything to do with just barely making it over the 3 day/72 hour minimum.

I can duplicate the $717 fare results by booking the outbound N/S on the 29th, returning on the 30th with the 218-3461 flight combo. Definitely less than 3 days or 72 hours no matter how you schedule it. I think the determining factor here is that the layover time between 218 and 3461 is greater than 4 hours (5h 17m) which automatically creates a stopover for faring purposes in UA's systems. The earlier ORD-EWR flights all have layover times less than 4 hours so no stopover is created.

mherdeg

(Edit: ok, I think you've got it. See notes below.)

Gosh, I was assuming it was 72 calendar hours, but gonna need a ruling from a pricing expert to be sure there. You might be right and it's a "calendar day" thing rather than an hours thing (in which case ignore my rambling about time of day of departure above).

Hmm, well, with departure on Thursday 1/29 you're hitting a different set of fare rules.

But I agree that I can't explain why 1/29 EWR-HNL || 1/30 UA218 HNL-ORD 1/31 UA403 ORD-EWR isn't allowed by those rules … unless you are not allowed to designate CHI as a stopover with a tight connection!!.

Recall that the "3 days from last stopover" rule is only for departures Sunday thru Wednesday. For a Thursday departure you're hitting:
The trips that do work 1/29 EWR-HNL + 1/30 HNL-ORD + 1/31 ORD-EWR are still pricing at $717 because they're a normal round trip L fare plus $55.81.

In this case the 1/31 ORD-EWR that does fare out departs on the first Saturday after departure from fare origin. But, yeah, I don't see why that UA218 UA403 is not a valid stopover … unless a <4 hr connection is never allowed to be a stopover. You could try calling UA reservations and asking them to get the rate desk to explain it. Or you could check the contract of carriage:

Golly, that's pretty unambiguous.

So here's an explanation -- the Thu 1/29 EWR-HNL, Fri 1/30 HNL-ORD, Sat 1/31 ORD-EWR is allowed ONLY if ORD counts as a stopover, which can happen at any point you request, except that it cannot happen if you have a <4 hr connection in ORD. Crazy.

And thus the Wed 1/28 EWR-HNL, Fri 1/30 HNL-ORD, Sat 1/31 ORD-EWR has the same behavior; you are leaving too soon for the L fare unless you get a stopover in CHI, which you can only get with a >4 hr stay.

amislove

Very interesting. I think you may actually be able price the Thu itinerary with a "pseudo" ORD stopover and the shorter connection, but you'll probably need a travel agent to do it. Let me explain.

I built that itinerary in Sabre, and the default pricing logic comes up with the $777 L/T/K fare with the ORD connection:

But, one can add a pricing qualifier that forces a stopover at connection 2 (ORD) -- the Sabre documentation says

Use this format to specify a stopover when the difference between the arrival and departure times of two connecting flights does not exceed four hours for domestic and US-Canada and US-Mexico transborder flights . For international flights, the stopover is defined as a transfer exceeding 24 hours.

Doing so gives the $717 price:

and does not throw any pricing errors. Thus, I can't say for sure whether this would ticket, but as far as I can tell, it would. In case you find a TA who's willing to try this, tell them to look at the "Issue Ticket - Add Stopover Override" function (which basically just boils down to adding a "Ox" qualifier to your pricing command, where x is the segment number after which you want the forced stopover).

mherdeg

Whoa. Hipmunk prices this itinerary at $2632 (booked into M/M/K), not $777. What fares is Sabre applying to generate the L/T/K price? Is that … valid?

As a travel agent I'd be worried that this might ticket, but then trigger an agency debit memo. The UA contract of carriage is pretty clear that they do not consider a <4hr trip a stopover; do you think UA would let an agent get away with pricing it as a 'forced stopover'?

I know that in other areas, some of the stuff that united.com does itself (sell individual-segment inventory and price with married-segment fares) is stuff that would certainly trigger a debit memo from an on-the-ball airline if a third-party agent did it.

amislove

The default fare construction that I'm getting is below. It's basically pricing it as a circle trip:

Absolutely agreed. I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig on this one. The $777 price should be easy for any TA to issue, though, as it's completely autopriced (which most GDS will guarantee).

PHLGovFlyer

Great find. Thanks for the insights.

Is there a way to use ITA, Hipmunk, or another front end to generate the codes and then push it to UA.com for pricing and ticketing?

n.b. I see that the fare expires tonight so hopefully I can move on this in the next few hours.

WineCountryUA

Hipmunk may offer a UA booking link. ITA does not.

amislove

I wasn't able to reproduce the $778 pricing on united.com or Orbitz, but I was able to do so on Expedia:



You should be able to buy it there (or use the United.com LFG if you want to get it issued directly by UA).

mherdeg

Wow, very nice work. Yes, this definitely looks like a UA LFG claim candidate.

Sykes

It's 3 calendar days.

I'd be concerned about that too. Sabre won't guarantee the fare if you force the stopover.