Denied boarding because didn't have Visa for China, though only connecting there.
Jun 18, 2014, 1:55 am
#91
Join Date: Mar 2007
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This is going to make me unpopular, but here it goes:
It is very likely this was ultimately United's mistake, as they certainly appeared to have incorrect information, but as a human being traveling to a foreign country, OP should have been better prepared for this situation...
It is very likely this was ultimately United's mistake, as they certainly appeared to have incorrect information, but as a human being traveling to a foreign country, OP should have been better prepared for this situation...
Wait on a second.
OP and party had valid tickets and passports. Everyone's paperwork was in order, they received accurate advice re visas from their TA; everyone in the party was good to go.
There is NO reason on earth that they should have been better prepared. None at all. There is zero fault on the OP's part.
Jun 18, 2014, 2:46 am
#92
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Wait on a second.
OP and party had valid tickets and passports. Everyone's paperwork was in order, they received accurate advice re visas from their TA; everyone in the party was good to go.
There is NO reason on earth that they should have been better prepared. None at all. There is zero fault on the OP's part.
It is UA's fault 100% on this. It does not matter which ticket stock it was written on.
It is called TRAINING.
OP did everything right (except leave the airport). He/she booked through a TA, showed up on-time with the correct travel documents (Passport), and because of poor training at the PHX OP UA missed a "trip of a lifetime".
UA sure has a lot of "new hires", perhaps contract employees lately (they sure do in LAS). Tagalog seems to be the new official language in LAS. Perhaps, PHX is the same (I have no clue as I would NEVER fly PHX-LAS on UA. Many, many GREAT UA/CO employees are gone in LAS.
What a shame. I blame UA management for this 100%. Get this family to their destination on UA's dime, ASAP. What a joke this airline has become.
Jun 18, 2014, 4:10 am
#93
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
To the OP, I'm sorry this happened to you and your family.
I'm with everyone here, UA is at fault 100% and you should get compensated for the cancelled trip (time, distress...etc) plus full monetary refund.
Please keep us updated.
I'm with everyone here, UA is at fault 100% and you should get compensated for the cancelled trip (time, distress...etc) plus full monetary refund.
Please keep us updated.
Jun 18, 2014, 5:52 am
#94
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I agree that UA is 100% at fault here and should provide full compensation. And I worry that OP's apparent travel naiveté will lead to OP not taking the right moves to get compensation from UA. ginanellis, you have been given some very good advice here about shortening your letter, making it to the point, and complaining to DOT. Follow it.
But one thing strikes me as odd in this story. OP says "The only thing she said was we could try and fly to San Francisco and see if they could re-route us somehow through another country". They should have taken this offer.
OP was as PHX early for a 7:45 am flight. OP does not live very far from the airport (we know this because OP was back at home at 7 am). The only CA flight SFO-PEK on 5/9 was CA986 at 2:50 pm. So OP had some 4-5 hours at SFO to sort this out. It seems that OP should have taken up UA on its offer, even if that meant collecting bags and rechecking at SFO. Plenty of time for that.
Then after OP got home and called Air China and learned no visa was needed "I looked at the clock only to see that our flight would be leaving to San Francisco in the next 15 minutes. It was a little to late for that information." Sure, it was too late to make the 7:45 flight, but there are many many PHX-SFO flights, by UA, US and WN. Specifically, even UA had UA5603 leaving PHX 09:53 arriving SFO 11:47. Why not head back to PHX, confront the UA agent with the info from Air China, and make this flight?
But one thing strikes me as odd in this story. OP says "The only thing she said was we could try and fly to San Francisco and see if they could re-route us somehow through another country". They should have taken this offer.
OP was as PHX early for a 7:45 am flight. OP does not live very far from the airport (we know this because OP was back at home at 7 am). The only CA flight SFO-PEK on 5/9 was CA986 at 2:50 pm. So OP had some 4-5 hours at SFO to sort this out. It seems that OP should have taken up UA on its offer, even if that meant collecting bags and rechecking at SFO. Plenty of time for that.
Then after OP got home and called Air China and learned no visa was needed "I looked at the clock only to see that our flight would be leaving to San Francisco in the next 15 minutes. It was a little to late for that information." Sure, it was too late to make the 7:45 flight, but there are many many PHX-SFO flights, by UA, US and WN. Specifically, even UA had UA5603 leaving PHX 09:53 arriving SFO 11:47. Why not head back to PHX, confront the UA agent with the info from Air China, and make this flight?
Jun 18, 2014, 5:58 am
#95
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They ( United management ) need to re write the procedures on how this is handled. DOCS check when flying internationally. The current procedures are unfriendly ( especially the redundant second check at the gate) and do not work. A lot of stupid, redundant checks because of gate agent / check agent ignorance, resulting in delays and ruined travel.
The best place to check this is during check in before the boarding pass is issued.
I also blame UA on POOR TRAINING. This is not the passengers responsibility, the fault is entirely on UA.
The best place to check this is during check in before the boarding pass is issued.
I also blame UA on POOR TRAINING. This is not the passengers responsibility, the fault is entirely on UA.
Jun 18, 2014, 6:05 am
#96
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This is going to make me unpopular, but here it goes:
It is very likely this was ultimately United's mistake, as they certainly appeared to have incorrect information, but as a human being traveling to a foreign country, OP should have been better prepared for this situation.
My philosophy is that every single person in the world should have a visa when they enter a foreign country as a baseline default, regardless of if they are transiting for an hour or living there for ten years. There are a waterfall of exceptions that allow some people (especially Americans) to enter many countries without a visa. These people (especially Americans) erroneously believe that this is the rule rather than the exception.
.........
I live in China, and my resident permit doesn't look exactly like a visa. I often have issues when I travel and I am prepared with anything I need to satisfy the airline's liability. And usually it ISN'T MUCH! Give them anything to go off of, heck, even show them FT and they'll almost always let you on that flight.
............
For example, if the PEK-MNL was on a different ticket (booked for a few hours later to create the "transit"), would anyone blame United for being extremely cautious about letting a passenger on a flight to a country that requires visas that appears to terminate in that country?
.............
It is very likely this was ultimately United's mistake, as they certainly appeared to have incorrect information, but as a human being traveling to a foreign country, OP should have been better prepared for this situation.
My philosophy is that every single person in the world should have a visa when they enter a foreign country as a baseline default, regardless of if they are transiting for an hour or living there for ten years. There are a waterfall of exceptions that allow some people (especially Americans) to enter many countries without a visa. These people (especially Americans) erroneously believe that this is the rule rather than the exception.
.........
I live in China, and my resident permit doesn't look exactly like a visa. I often have issues when I travel and I am prepared with anything I need to satisfy the airline's liability. And usually it ISN'T MUCH! Give them anything to go off of, heck, even show them FT and they'll almost always let you on that flight.
............
For example, if the PEK-MNL was on a different ticket (booked for a few hours later to create the "transit"), would anyone blame United for being extremely cautious about letting a passenger on a flight to a country that requires visas that appears to terminate in that country?
.............
My experience with flying DL NRT-PVG on a legal TWOV itinerary is that no amount of documentation was going to help with the four business class check in agents and supervisor I dealt with for two hours because they simply didn't "believe" (their words) that TWOV to China was possible. I had printed out the SkyTeam TIMATIC pages for my situation that morning but it didn't matter, only the "beliefs" of those improperly trained agents who first refused to look at TIMATIC and then apparently used it improperly. Even the redcoat who later agreed to let me board didn't believe that I would be allowed to leave the airport for 68 hours (again, in her mind, beliefs about transit procedures overrode the TIMATIC documentation) and almost insisted that I make a nonrefundable reservation to stay at an airport hotel.
Finally, TWOV doesn't require a single ticket. One simply must have a purchased ticket (ticket receipt with ticket number, for example a printout of the emailed receipt when the ticket was issued) and confirmed reservation (again, a hard copy is best) to depart China for a third country within 24 hours in this case.
Last edited by MSPeconomist; Jun 18, 2014 at 6:20 am
Jun 18, 2014, 7:20 am
#97
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
If the OP made any mistakes it was not listening to this agent ," The only thing she said was we could try and fly to San Francisco and see if they could re-routeus somehow through another country."
I would have flown to SFO and dealt with Air China once there and Im sure they would have flown. The OPs mistake was going back home instead of to SFO and dealing with it there
We still have no idea if it was an '016' (UA tkt stk) but if UA let them fly to SF and they in fact ended up needing Visas then UA would have to fly them back to PHX
I can only assume they were on this ridiculous routing since it most likely was the cheapest, even with a hotel for the night @ MNL
I would have flown to SFO and dealt with Air China once there and Im sure they would have flown. The OPs mistake was going back home instead of to SFO and dealing with it there
We still have no idea if it was an '016' (UA tkt stk) but if UA let them fly to SF and they in fact ended up needing Visas then UA would have to fly them back to PHX
I can only assume they were on this ridiculous routing since it most likely was the cheapest, even with a hotel for the night @ MNL
Last edited by craz; Jun 18, 2014 at 8:54 am
Jun 18, 2014, 7:22 am
#98
Join Date: Jul 2013
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If the OP made any mistakes it was not listening to this agent ," The only thing she said was we could try and fly to San Francisco and see if they could re-routeus somehow through another country."
I would have flown to SFO and dealt with Air China once there and Im sure they would have flown. The OPs mistake was going back home instead of to SFO and dealing with it there
I would have flown to SFO and dealt with Air China once there and Im sure they would have flown. The OPs mistake was going back home instead of to SFO and dealing with it there
Jun 18, 2014, 8:00 am
#99
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Jun 18, 2014, 8:18 am
#100
Join Date: Jul 2006
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 1,154
Sorry to hear about this OP. What a terrible thing to happen to you on a trip-of-a-lifetime.
The agents at your check-in airport were wrong and need to be re-trained. This is 100% their cause.
I frequently travel to Brazil from the US and 9 times out of 10 get held up at check in while I watch them discover for themselves that I do not need a Brazilian visa (I have UK passport). I now carry a print out back up of that information - which they generally ignore or tell me they cannot clear me based on that - so to those travelers telling you it is your responsibility to have this proof - it is not - and they likely wouldn't look at it anyway.
I hope you take UA to the cleaners.
The agents at your check-in airport were wrong and need to be re-trained. This is 100% their cause.
I frequently travel to Brazil from the US and 9 times out of 10 get held up at check in while I watch them discover for themselves that I do not need a Brazilian visa (I have UK passport). I now carry a print out back up of that information - which they generally ignore or tell me they cannot clear me based on that - so to those travelers telling you it is your responsibility to have this proof - it is not - and they likely wouldn't look at it anyway.
I hope you take UA to the cleaners.
Jun 18, 2014, 8:33 am
#101
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This is going to make me unpopular, but here it goes:
It is very likely this was ultimately United's mistake, as they certainly appeared to have incorrect information, but as a human being traveling to a foreign country, OP should have been better prepared for this situation.
My philosophy is that every single person in the world should have a visa when they enter a foreign country as a baseline default, regardless of if they are transiting for an hour or living there for ten years. There are a waterfall of exceptions that allow some people (especially Americans) to enter many countries without a visa. These people (especially Americans) erroneously believe that this is the rule rather than the exception.
Whose responsibility is it to check the exceptions to visa requirements? It's your responsibility, not the airline's, and you need to demonstrate to them that you don't need a visa to enter that country. United faces STEEP penalties for transporting a person to a foreign country without proper documentation, and I don't blame them for erring on the side of being conservative.
United, as a courtesy to you, has some information about visas to ASSIST you with YOUR responsibility to know the requirements. If OP had been 100% certain that he and his family could transit Beijing with no visa, why would he ever leave the airport? Why would he accept United's answer? He was not 100% certain - and that's on him. He should have asserted himself and (like others suggested) brought proper documentation showing the visa exception or at least googled it on a smartphone (yes, I get that not everyone has a smartphone) and showed it to the agent.
I live in China, and my resident permit doesn't look exactly like a visa. I often have issues when I travel and I am prepared with anything I need to satisfy the airline's liability. And usually it ISN'T MUCH! Give them anything to go off of, heck, even show them FT and they'll almost always let you on that flight.
Before you all go blaming big, bad United (and let me tell you they deserve a lot of blame for a lot of things), bear in mind we don't know everything about this situation, either. We are only getting one side of the story and potentially critical information is being left out.
For example, if the PEK-MNL was on a different ticket (booked for a few hours later to create the "transit"), would anyone blame United for being extremely cautious about letting a passenger on a flight to a country that requires visas that appears to terminate in that country?
International travel is done casually nowadays, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a big deal, and requires serious preparation. Especially for the trip of a lifetime, and especially for someone who doesn't travel internationally frequently. I feel for OP, and of course hindsight is 20/20. I hope he has another chance to take the trip of a lifetime and won't let United's mistakes prevent it.
It is very likely this was ultimately United's mistake, as they certainly appeared to have incorrect information, but as a human being traveling to a foreign country, OP should have been better prepared for this situation.
My philosophy is that every single person in the world should have a visa when they enter a foreign country as a baseline default, regardless of if they are transiting for an hour or living there for ten years. There are a waterfall of exceptions that allow some people (especially Americans) to enter many countries without a visa. These people (especially Americans) erroneously believe that this is the rule rather than the exception.
Whose responsibility is it to check the exceptions to visa requirements? It's your responsibility, not the airline's, and you need to demonstrate to them that you don't need a visa to enter that country. United faces STEEP penalties for transporting a person to a foreign country without proper documentation, and I don't blame them for erring on the side of being conservative.
United, as a courtesy to you, has some information about visas to ASSIST you with YOUR responsibility to know the requirements. If OP had been 100% certain that he and his family could transit Beijing with no visa, why would he ever leave the airport? Why would he accept United's answer? He was not 100% certain - and that's on him. He should have asserted himself and (like others suggested) brought proper documentation showing the visa exception or at least googled it on a smartphone (yes, I get that not everyone has a smartphone) and showed it to the agent.
I live in China, and my resident permit doesn't look exactly like a visa. I often have issues when I travel and I am prepared with anything I need to satisfy the airline's liability. And usually it ISN'T MUCH! Give them anything to go off of, heck, even show them FT and they'll almost always let you on that flight.
Before you all go blaming big, bad United (and let me tell you they deserve a lot of blame for a lot of things), bear in mind we don't know everything about this situation, either. We are only getting one side of the story and potentially critical information is being left out.
For example, if the PEK-MNL was on a different ticket (booked for a few hours later to create the "transit"), would anyone blame United for being extremely cautious about letting a passenger on a flight to a country that requires visas that appears to terminate in that country?
International travel is done casually nowadays, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a big deal, and requires serious preparation. Especially for the trip of a lifetime, and especially for someone who doesn't travel internationally frequently. I feel for OP, and of course hindsight is 20/20. I hope he has another chance to take the trip of a lifetime and won't let United's mistakes prevent it.
Jun 18, 2014, 8:36 am
#102
Join Date: Jun 2012
Programs: UA Platinum
Posts: 252
Suppose, in this instance, the OP actually did need a Chinese visa. Would they be allowed to take the PHX-SFO flight? Does UA have a rule specifically against issuing the BP for the domestic leg in this case? A DOT rule?
Jun 18, 2014, 8:53 am
#103
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24,153
I'm not sure this was the case, but it does bring up a question someone with more knowledge of UA procedure might be able to answer.
Suppose, in this instance, the OP actually did need a Chinese visa. Would they be allowed to take the PHX-SFO flight? Does UA have a rule specifically against issuing the BP for the domestic leg in this case? A DOT rule?
Suppose, in this instance, the OP actually did need a Chinese visa. Would they be allowed to take the PHX-SFO flight? Does UA have a rule specifically against issuing the BP for the domestic leg in this case? A DOT rule?
Jun 18, 2014, 8:55 am
#104
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nal itineraries. What happens if they transport the passengers to the international gateway and they are refused boarding? The airline then has to send them back. They'd rahter n
t do that.
Jun 18, 2014, 9:00 am
#105
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
Didn't someone recently say at the BoD meeting something along the lines of "UA agents weren't adequately trained"?