rankourabu

I only flew 6 AA flights recently up front.

Yes, MIA-LAX, very unimpressed on the 777, pretty bad seat, also on the 762 LAX-JFK. Both planes were disgustingly dirty, I have pictures of old kleenexes from between the window and seat. The food was just as uninspired as domestic UA 3 class F would be.

Dont even get me started on the horrible condition of the old 757s on LAX-KOA-LAX that looked like they were from 1975, falling apart, old pleather yellow seats, with pen marks, and broken footrests

JFK-MIA - cancelled while already on the plane, a clusterf in IRROPS, no flexibility, lied about how its weather with clear skies in JFK and everything else taking off

One other flight, ORD-YYZ, delayed indefinitely and finally cancelled - no flexibility in rebooking (and I have BA/CX/AS status).

I do like their preorder meal idea though, and the flagship lounges in MIA/LAX were great.

demkr

My opinion is that many people who use the "Race to the bottom" thing, which in my judgment sounds like a talking point since it is used by many people who regularly defend Smisek's actions or rah-rah about UA, haven't flown AA or DL in several years.

I don't think it's appropriate for people to compare the other two to UA until they've actually experienced a few flights (in F, quite frankly).

For example, if one were to fly AA or DL regional F, they'd discover that the meal they receive is more substantial and appetizing than UA's mainline F meal.

They might discover that DM's and EXP's have a significantly higher upgrade rate than UA 1K's, and that somehow, someway, they're able to make more money than UA and not completely gut the FF experience.

To be fair, yes, the DL program was cut, but with those cuts didn't come product devaluations. All UA has done since adding the PQD requirements is make 1K worth less.

spin88

Actually, we have been better at predicting where United's profits would go than the investment community. That is a fact, and its an indisputable fact.

Today? United has a 40.36:1 P/E ratio on a trailing basis. And this is based upon the "profit" ex-special items. The P/E ratio is over 50:1 on a GAAP basis.

What has happened is that the "savvy" promoters and fly by night operators who suggested Jeff's "savvy" business plan, and sold it to institutional investors, have put very high profit targets on UAL. They have predicted that United just has to make money, and lots of it. Why? Well to the Hunter Keays of the world, if you cut service, cut the mileage program, and upsell like a crack ho on Capp street, well you have to make bank right? Its almost a religious belief.

And the institutional investors who bought on Hunter's advise, his promise that United would double its profits, justifying the values? Well they are stuck, and just hoping it all works out.

But given the track record of the "street" you are not going to get far claiming that Jeff is "savvy" as he is following the street's plans...

I really don't understand your point. The author quotes a FA who says the food is awful. Do you doubt this? It is awful, that is a verifiable fact. Even the CO till death do us part defenders will admit that.

And are you suggesting the comment about people saying Virgin is better is not true? Virgin is better. Having just gotten off a Virgin transcon in F, I can swear on a stack of bibles that the difference is between spending 6 hours hanging out at a libby's cafeteria and being at a nice bar/restaurant with attractive hostesses. But hey, tell us how great United's net promoter score is....

Bingo. At this point there are no facts to defend UAfkaCO and Jeff's management, and its just reflexive defending going on.

You have succinctly diagnosed the problem. Jeff's business plan was that suggested by the Hunter Keay/Jimmy Bakers of the world. They in turn sold the institutional investors. There is a lot of resistance to saying things are not working out when you suggested the current course. And as it did not work out, they (because they can) don't want to admit they bet on the wrong horse, and if they sold, there would be no buyers, so they hold. But at some point they will bail, and I think the relative movement of DAL/AAL and UAL in the last two weeks shows that an inflection point has been reached.

Ah, and four pages in, someone finally says the only thing that the defenders can say "all airlines are bad"

Well you might get out more often, get off the "jeff'd up" airline. Fact is, other airlines do better, and its not just FT, its what third party surveys show:

http://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcont...0&context=aqrr [see page 15, dead last of the major airlines]

http://www.theacsi.org/news-and-reso...-2014-download [United in dead last, by a lot... ]

tom911

Here's a more interesting article in tomorrow's Crain's Chicago Business with a lot of facts:

Did United's Smisek really earn that bonus?

Plenty to read there so I'll just post a short part:

MatthewLAX

This.

Kacee

On the subject of Smiske's $8M bonus,
Well I guess we now know the rationale behind Project Quality and the $2B in cuts.

hobo13

Ah yes, the true apologist argument.... it's ALWAYS the customer's fault.

DaviddesJ

I have no problem with you referencing what I write. But:

If you honestly believe that the points in the article are WRONG lets discuss that - instead of wasting time on this....

Listen - my point is that many of your posts on this thread are what I would call "rat holes" - and I think you know what I mean....

No - you make comments from an angle that were not intended by the poster and seemingly with an agenda that appears to be quite defensive of UA....

Once again you pivot AWAY from the real meaning of your post....

I'm just commenting on the article that is the subject of this thread. Please stop telling me what you think I should write about or what you (incorrectly) believe my agenda to be.

I said, "I have no way to know." Isn't that the exact opposite of "it's always the customer's fault"?

elitetraveler

I know the 777 F seats MIA-LAX are old, but for a transcon, what UA route has better seating than 1x2x1 suites.

In terms of LAX-KOA-LAX AA 757s on that route don't have footrests.

I'll agree the planes should be cleaner, but UA planes leave a lot to be desired.

In terms of domestic F meals, there is no way to argue or spin that UA approaches AA currently.

Ecuacoflyer

I have had multiple similar conversations. Have you asked the questions?

DaviddesJ

I don't understand the question. Have I spent a lot of time talking to UA flight attendants? No. I do know that a lot of UA flight attendants are very angry with management and are likely to say negative things about management regardless of what the truth might be.

If the board decides to incentivize the CEO to cut costs and doesn't incentivize the CEO to satisfy customers or increase demand for their product, then the results shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Sounds like the problem here is as much with the board as the CEO (although I don't know how independent they are and how much they actually set priorities vs. just doing whatever the CEO tells them).

ysolde

Agreed.

rankourabu

Apologies, you are right, it was these seats, it was just the backing/underseat plastic of the seat in front of us that was dangling loose

Seriously, comparing UA and AA is a pointless exercise. Its poop vs poop

kb1992

DL SkyMiles is the worst FFP.

Until UA reaches that low, I won't consider flying DL.

elitetraveler

Actually in the past 2 years AA has raised it's game, particularly in the catering area. It also seems virtually every AA domestic flight has wifi.

In terms of customer facing personnel, neither set the world on fire. Both have dome dismal FAs.