ExpressJet told United in January 2014 that it needs to cut flying
Feb 11, 2014, 7:59 am
#16
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Leave the 145s and get rid of the 200s. The 145 bashers need to take a few rides on a CRJ-200 next to a sumo wrestler and then try out the one-seat side of the ERJ-145. It's like First Class in comparison. Come on guys, get with the program.
Feb 11, 2014, 10:39 am
#17
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Feb 11, 2014, 11:03 am
#18
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Feb 11, 2014, 1:20 pm
#19
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The Q400 a death trap? It's as safe as any other plane in the sky today IMO. This pilot situation is going to change the RJ landscape drastically. The costs to get to 1500 hours just don't lend themselves to being paid minimum wage. Regional jet operators are just going to have to pay their pilots a whole lot more to keep them, which means its not going to make sense to fly 50 seat RJ's anymore. I do agree UA seems to be behind the times here, hopefully we see a big order of C Series or E195's from UA or it's RJ operators soon.
Feb 11, 2014, 2:20 pm
#20
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pmUA also became horribly over-reliant on shifting flying to express carriers before the merger -- partly because pmUA couldn't afford to continue paying for or repairing their planes. I was in the process of boarding two separate UA mainline flights (while they were in Chapter 13) when the planes were repo'd and the flights canceled. Was classy.
Then-United management did what it had to do to try to maintain coverage.
I don't think it's really about current management not thinking about these issues in advance. I think they've had their hands full trying to knock off other things, which for myriad reasons presented their own set of challenges.
Then-United management did what it had to do to try to maintain coverage.
I don't think it's really about current management not thinking about these issues in advance. I think they've had their hands full trying to knock off other things, which for myriad reasons presented their own set of challenges.
To try to keep the discussion factual, PMUA had 38 E-170s and 115 CRJ700s at the merger many were brought in to make up for the 737 "classics" pulled from the fleet. UAL did not initially order replacement narrowbodies (as tilton was trying to merge and US, a potential partner has airbus's and CO was Boeing) until Tilton ordered them right before the merger (the 739ERs coming in now).
While I am not blown by RJs, UAL equipped both planes with First Class AND E+> United also had another 75 CRJ200s, which we can agree were awful.
Your beloved CO? Well it had 277 ERJ-145s and about 50 ERJ-135s, all with 31" pitch Y. They also had a few Q400/300/200s.
The numbers do not lie, PMCO was far more dependent on RJs, and the CO RJ experience was an entirely new low in "craptastic" for those of us used to United.
Delta had a headstart in that their BK concessionary pilots contract was initially more favorable to having 76 seaters (that's why they were allowed the CRJ900/E-175s). Then, the 717 contract that allowed more E175s was signed about a year before UAs similar matching contract was.
UA placed their order for the E175 as soon as they were contractually able via pilot's contract. You don't get every plane off the line once you place an order; it takes a while to ramp up the fleet.
UA placed their order for the E175 as soon as they were contractually able via pilot's contract. You don't get every plane off the line once you place an order; it takes a while to ramp up the fleet.
United will get only 17 (or it may be 27, different numbers in different places) E-175s this year. The reason why? Anderson was looking at fuel costs for small RJs, the fact passengers hated them, and the new pilot rule, and decided to upgrage. UAL? Well they spend their energy/money replacing the 757 fleet with 739ERs and the CO 762 fleet with dream liners.
In addition to the favorable contract Delta negotiated in BK, they also had the foresight to restructure 3 contract carriers, eliminating their 50 seat jets at once.
United's E-175 delivery stream is dependent on Embraer. The can't ramp up production to get United deliveries faster - United must take deliveries as they are available.
United's E-175 delivery stream is dependent on Embraer. The can't ramp up production to get United deliveries faster - United must take deliveries as they are available.
I could again be wrong, but with very real concerns about UAL's debt load and having cash flow to cover the new planes already ordered (note the questions on this, and UAL's refusal to answer on the 4Q 2013 call) UAL is not and has not been in a possition to revamp its RJ fleet.
The deliveries are slow as UAL has only placed firm Orders for 30 E-175s, with "options" for 40 more in 2013. [Have these even been converted into "firm" orders yet?]. So Jeff waited a long time, and then only placed a small order. American, as an example ordered 170 E-170/175s in 2013.
Bottom line is that from the moment Jeff took over, his energies have been focused on replacing the UAL mainline fleet (he even looked at replacing the airbus fleet) with no thought or attention to the RJ fleet. Delta had a different view and plan, and it appears Delta bet right, and Jeff did not.
Feb 11, 2014, 2:26 pm
#21
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In what sense is the Q400 a "death trap"? That's not a very enlightened thing to say. From a fatalities-per-enplanements point of view, the 737 and 747 are much more egregious "death traps." And in the sole Q hull loss to date, the Colgan thing, the aircraft performed exactly as requested; sadly its pilots asked it to commit suicide.
Feb 11, 2014, 3:10 pm
#22
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Sorry, it was just before they went into CH 11 (NOT 13). They were domestic legs. And they were both canceled. Painful for the GAs to inform people that the planes were being repo'd.
Feb 11, 2014, 3:13 pm
#23
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The Q400 a death trap? It's as safe as any other plane in the sky today IMO. This pilot situation is going to change the RJ landscape drastically. The costs to get to 1500 hours just don't lend themselves to being paid minimum wage. Regional jet operators are just going to have to pay their pilots a whole lot more to keep them, which means its not going to make sense to fly 50 seat RJ's anymore. I do agree UA seems to be behind the times here, hopefully we see a big order of C Series or E195's from UA or it's RJ operators soon.
Well, well, your desire to support Jeff and CO. has lead you off into fact free land. UAL was a CH 11, it comes with a stay, there were no planes reposed. Period, end of story. There was infact litigation by several plane owners to try to get back A/C from UAL, no one could have, or did repo anything. Nice of you to make things up.
To try to keep the discussion factual, PMUA had 38 E-170s and 115 CRJ700s at the merger many were brought in to make up for the 737 "classics" pulled from the fleet. UAL did not initially order replacement narrowbodies (as tilton was trying to merge and US, a potential partner has airbus's and CO was Boeing) until Tilton ordered them right before the merger (the 739ERs coming in now).
While I am not blown by RJs, UAL equipped both planes with First Class AND E+> United also had another 75 CRJ200s, which we can agree were awful.
Your beloved CO? Well it had 277 ERJ-145s and about 50 ERJ-135s, all with 31" pitch Y. They also had a few Q400/300/200s.
The numbers do not lie, PMCO was far more dependent on RJs, and the CO RJ experience was an entirely new low in "craptastic" for those of us used to United.
Don't let facts interfere with a good rant about how the poster was on not just one, but TWO UAL MAINLINE PLANES THAT GOT REPOSED. I'm sure such a strong clear and detailed memory has to be factual, and not simply made up.
I may be wrong in my memory, but I think that the 717 deal had nothing to do with the BKR, and that the vast bulk of the new large RJs came with the 717 deal, not the BKR. I think DAL's earlier pilot deal was like UALs. What happened was that in May 2012 (4 years after BKR contract) the opportunity to lease the 717s happened, and Delta signed with SW contingent on an agreement with the pilots. They then worked out a deal which allowed them to fly the 717s AND bring on more large RJS (CRJ900/E-195/175s) which they have been doing.
United will get only 17 (or it may be 27, different numbers in different places) E-175s this year. The reason why? Anderson was looking at fuel costs for small RJs, the fact passengers hated them, and the new pilot rule, and decided to upgrage. UAL? Well they spend their energy/money replacing the 757 fleet with 739ERs and the CO 762 fleet with dream liners.
As noted above, I think the 717 deal with the DAL pilots (which allowed more bigger RJs) was done in 2012, not in BKR. I could be wrong. But that deal did (as you note) also allow larger RJs to replace the 50 seaters.
I could again be wrong, but with very real concerns about UAL's debt load and having cash flow to cover the new planes already ordered (note the questions on this, and UAL's refusal to answer on the 4Q 2013 call) UAL is not and has not been in a possition to revamp its RJ fleet.
The deliveries are slow as UAL has only placed firm Orders for 30 E-175s, with "options" for 40 more in 2013. [Have these even been converted into "firm" orders yet?]. So Jeff waited a long time, and then only placed a small order. American, as an example ordered 170 E-170/175s in 2013.
Bottom line is that from the moment Jeff took over, his energies have been focused on replacing the UAL mainline fleet (he even looked at replacing the airbus fleet) with no thought or attention to the RJ fleet. Delta had a different view and plan, and it appears Delta bet right, and Jeff did not.
To try to keep the discussion factual, PMUA had 38 E-170s and 115 CRJ700s at the merger many were brought in to make up for the 737 "classics" pulled from the fleet. UAL did not initially order replacement narrowbodies (as tilton was trying to merge and US, a potential partner has airbus's and CO was Boeing) until Tilton ordered them right before the merger (the 739ERs coming in now).
While I am not blown by RJs, UAL equipped both planes with First Class AND E+> United also had another 75 CRJ200s, which we can agree were awful.
Your beloved CO? Well it had 277 ERJ-145s and about 50 ERJ-135s, all with 31" pitch Y. They also had a few Q400/300/200s.
The numbers do not lie, PMCO was far more dependent on RJs, and the CO RJ experience was an entirely new low in "craptastic" for those of us used to United.
Don't let facts interfere with a good rant about how the poster was on not just one, but TWO UAL MAINLINE PLANES THAT GOT REPOSED. I'm sure such a strong clear and detailed memory has to be factual, and not simply made up.
I may be wrong in my memory, but I think that the 717 deal had nothing to do with the BKR, and that the vast bulk of the new large RJs came with the 717 deal, not the BKR. I think DAL's earlier pilot deal was like UALs. What happened was that in May 2012 (4 years after BKR contract) the opportunity to lease the 717s happened, and Delta signed with SW contingent on an agreement with the pilots. They then worked out a deal which allowed them to fly the 717s AND bring on more large RJS (CRJ900/E-195/175s) which they have been doing.
United will get only 17 (or it may be 27, different numbers in different places) E-175s this year. The reason why? Anderson was looking at fuel costs for small RJs, the fact passengers hated them, and the new pilot rule, and decided to upgrage. UAL? Well they spend their energy/money replacing the 757 fleet with 739ERs and the CO 762 fleet with dream liners.
As noted above, I think the 717 deal with the DAL pilots (which allowed more bigger RJs) was done in 2012, not in BKR. I could be wrong. But that deal did (as you note) also allow larger RJs to replace the 50 seaters.
I could again be wrong, but with very real concerns about UAL's debt load and having cash flow to cover the new planes already ordered (note the questions on this, and UAL's refusal to answer on the 4Q 2013 call) UAL is not and has not been in a possition to revamp its RJ fleet.
The deliveries are slow as UAL has only placed firm Orders for 30 E-175s, with "options" for 40 more in 2013. [Have these even been converted into "firm" orders yet?]. So Jeff waited a long time, and then only placed a small order. American, as an example ordered 170 E-170/175s in 2013.
Bottom line is that from the moment Jeff took over, his energies have been focused on replacing the UAL mainline fleet (he even looked at replacing the airbus fleet) with no thought or attention to the RJ fleet. Delta had a different view and plan, and it appears Delta bet right, and Jeff did not.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Feb 11, 2014 at 3:21 pm Reason: merge
Feb 11, 2014, 7:26 pm
#24
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Two of my flights were canceled because leasing agents seized them. There may have been an agreement that stopped it from taking place, but the flights were canceled. And I'm not justifying United management. But people, including you it seems, are willing to blame any- and everything on management. This is a fundamental flaw with the airline industry and this is part of the outcome. More chips will fall.
Feb 11, 2014, 9:29 pm
#25
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Feb 11, 2014, 9:39 pm
#26
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I'd go a step further... it's close for me between a 700 and the port side of a 145. Most of the time, I think I'd opt for the 145 over the 700.
The 170s, on the other hand, are much better than the previous three.
Feb 11, 2014, 9:47 pm
#27
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Feb 11, 2014, 9:58 pm
#28
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Feb 11, 2014, 10:15 pm
#29
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Well, well, your desire to support Jeff and CO. has lead you off into fact free land. UAL was a CH 11, it comes with a stay, there were no planes reposed. Period, end of story. There was infact litigation by several plane owners to try to get back A/C from UAL, no one could have, or did repo anything. Nice of you to make things up.
To try to keep the discussion factual, PMUA had 38 E-170s and 115 CRJ700s at the merger many were brought in to make up for the 737 "classics" pulled from the fleet. UAL did not initially order replacement narrowbodies (as tilton was trying to merge and US, a potential partner has airbus's and CO was Boeing) until Tilton ordered them right before the merger (the 739ERs coming in now).
While I am not blown by RJs, UAL equipped both planes with First Class AND E+> United also had another 75 CRJ200s, which we can agree were awful.
Your beloved CO? Well it had 277 ERJ-145s and about 50 ERJ-135s, all with 31" pitch Y. They also had a few Q400/300/200s.
The numbers do not lie, PMCO was far more dependent on RJs, and the CO RJ experience was an entirely new low in "craptastic" for those of us used to United.
To try to keep the discussion factual, PMUA had 38 E-170s and 115 CRJ700s at the merger many were brought in to make up for the 737 "classics" pulled from the fleet. UAL did not initially order replacement narrowbodies (as tilton was trying to merge and US, a potential partner has airbus's and CO was Boeing) until Tilton ordered them right before the merger (the 739ERs coming in now).
While I am not blown by RJs, UAL equipped both planes with First Class AND E+> United also had another 75 CRJ200s, which we can agree were awful.
Your beloved CO? Well it had 277 ERJ-145s and about 50 ERJ-135s, all with 31" pitch Y. They also had a few Q400/300/200s.
The numbers do not lie, PMCO was far more dependent on RJs, and the CO RJ experience was an entirely new low in "craptastic" for those of us used to United.
Code:
carrier | flights | seats | asm ---------+---------+-------+----- CO | 64% | 35% | 16% UA | 66% | 37% | 14%
Feb 11, 2014, 10:20 pm
#30
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Percent of flights, seats, and ASM that are express in the pre-merger (2010-5-17, a Monday) schedule: