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Originally Posted by samcmontreal
(Post 31969459)
That is a lot of assumptions including "but not limited to" knowledge of frequent flyer rules (most non FTers I meet have no idea about most of the rules and benefits) and citizenship and tax residency obligations.
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Originally Posted by lincolnjkc
(Post 31969513)
It's not even necessary to click a link to see them when enrolling in MP...they're directly above the "Accept and Enroll" button and easily Google-able if someone wants or need to refresh their memory in the future.
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Originally Posted by docbert
(Post 31971207)
Technically that says you can't purchase "mileage", which is clearly different to "Miles".
for example from the full T&C Miles will be accrued in a Member’s account only when the Member avails themselves of a means of accrual recognized under the Program. Members may only accrue mileage as a result of their own utilization of services, whether air transportation or otherwise, except to the extent that mileage may be earned for purchases made through authorized debit or credit cards or as expressly allowed under the applicable offer. |
Originally Posted by lincolnjkc
(Post 31953021)
UA is happy to take your money as long as you haven't caused a disruption in flight (e.g. assault a FA or other passenger, etc.) -- you'll certainly be aware if UA has prohibited you from flying with UA.
MP on the other hand rules say Which implies that there is some possibility of receiving a special dispensation or pardon from MP, but it likely depends on the specifics of each case, must explicitly be requested, and is not guaranteed. In other words, probably best finding another program/airline to be loyal to.
Originally Posted by samcmontreal
(Post 31968635)
He never bought or sold before. It was 1 million miles worth of flight awards booked. He used all existing miles for future flight awards. He bought 150K miles. United canceled all the tickets worth roughly 1 million MP points and closed his account. At least they refunded all the taxes. Sounds pretty harsh.
Sorry, no sympathy. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 31973241)
UA could interpret the "not eligible to participate in any aspect" rule to say that the person also cannot receive gifted upgrades from some other person's MP account.
I tend to be paranoid (but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get me :) ) but if I were on the gifting end of the equation I'd be somewhat reticent to gift an upgrade to anyone on UA security/compliance's radar for fear of a guilt-by-association impact. |
Me too, but I wouldn't trust someone to necessarily tell me about previous encounters with airline corporate security departments.
BTW, DL requires a FF number for someone to be eligible for a (free) upgrade as the traveling companion of an elite, but I've never klooked carefully at the rules regarding needing a FF number or not for an instrument supported upgrade. [Under certain conditions, an expensive ticket for a DL flight can be upgraded using certain partner airline's FF program miles, which should in principle still work after one is banned from participating in DL's FF program.] OTOH DL rules permit gifting of SWU-equivalents only to someone (one person only) on the same flights as the elite, which makes it virtually impossible for someone to attempt to sell these upgrade instruments. I like this. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 31976896)
Me too, but I wouldn't trust someone to necessarily tell me about previous encounters with airline corporate security departments.
BTW, DL requires a FF number for someone to be eligible for a (free) upgrade as the traveling companion of an elite, but I've never klooked carefully at the rules regarding needing a FF number or not for an instrument supported upgrade. [Under certain conditions, an expensive ticket for a DL flight can be upgraded using certain partner airline's FF program miles, which should in principle still work after one is banned from participating in DL's FF program.] OTOH DL rules permit gifting of SWU-equivalents only to someone (one person only) on the same flights as the elite, which makes it virtually impossible for someone to attempt to sell these upgrade instruments. I like this. |
Oh please let's not encourage UA to limit a system because of the bad actions of a few. I have gifted miles and upgrades to friends and family over the years - some had a FF# but many did not. One of the benefits of the program is the ability to share my love of travel with others. Often we would be flying to the same place but point of origin was different so on different flights.
Well run organizations have the rules for the many who want to do the right thing and not the few who want to game the system. You deal with the few differently (that is the role of management). Think sick leave policies. Well run organizations provide unlimited sick leave with no need to provide a medical certificate as employees are adults and treat them as such. Organizations that limit the leave and require medical certificates are treating their employees like children and they will act that same way. I have worked in the latter organizations where employees "plan" their sick days as the rules make it seem like an entitlement rather than what it is - if you are sick stay away. I like the current UA rules, do not abuse them and applaud United for getting rid of the few bad apples. |
Originally Posted by Aussienarelle
(Post 31978445)
If you are sick stay away.
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Does blocked by United mean that you are out of the star alliance program too?
Originally Posted by jsloan
(Post 31956471)
There is a difference between high-revenue and high-profit. Besides, what if they lose two $25K per year customers because they can’t clear their upgrades, because the $12K per year customer has sold them to people without status?
More to the point, though; the real reason that they don’t structure the program the way you’re suggesting is that they count on a substantial amount of breakage in the certificates. It’s a marketing program, meaning that they’re going to tout the benefits without pointing out that it won’t be possible for everybody to receive all of them (like the complimentary upgrade for Silver members). If they made the upgrade instruments transferable, and thus decreased breakage, they’d have to give out fewer certificates. Not only would this hurt people who had been able to use their instruments in the past, it would also hurt the attractiveness of the program. One of UA’s sales pitches for 1K status is a minimum of 6 GPUs (now 8 GPU-equivalents, with PlusPoints), and an unlimited ability to earn more with continued travel. If they roll that back to match DL — 4 GPU-equivalents, full stop — it’s going to be seen as a major devaluation by a lot of the people they’re targeting, and only a minor upgrade for people who can now sell the upgrades. That’s because the apparent value of a GPU is much greater than its actual value, and UA is selling them, aspirationally, based upon the apparent value.
Originally Posted by ExplorerWannabe
(Post 31962610)
In point of fact, they did give them to you for free.
$60K is big revenue? You were certainly a loyal customer since you made 1K for five years but give me a break on "big revenue". That's just a laugh when you look at the millions of passengers they carry annually and the total revenue stream they're looking at. You could quit flying United (and maybe have) and the dimple on their financials wouldn't even be perceptible. It actually might work. Just title it, "For our valued Premium Elites who follow the rules, we got rid of ### cheaters this month. You won't have to compete with people illegitimately using their accounts for upgrades because they're gone." They are. By all means. As an engineer and physicist, I love math. Because United would like to get the $1000 or so of revenue themselves or give the upgrades to loyal customers (many of whom spend a lot more than $12k per year) who follow the rules instead of having that seat go to a non- or low-status customer who bought the upgrade cert on the Internet and deprived a higher status customer (who is also spending a lot of money annually) of that upgrade. Let's flip that equation: Why would a person who can afford enough travel to amass over 1M award miles endanger their status and account for $1000? That's right up there with someone owning a high-end sports car driving miles out of his/her way over a bumpy dirt road to avoid taking a toll road. So again, why exactly did you intentionally endanger that retirement fund for travel to garner a few hundred dollars? Did you at least enjoy the proceeds? Also, cheating would be if I got more than the 6 GPUs given out to 1k's. I was just using the 6 given to me (in return for the 100k miles flown and the $12k funds). So I fail to understand that other members will benefit. Infact look at it this way - if the GPU is sold most likely to a regular member, they are at the bottom of the upgrade list - so the 1ks and GS will never have any competition against them since their upgrade will clear first. Why did I intentionally endanger? Couple of reasons: 1) I didn't think United cared. I've seen people use the advice thing and thought it was ok and United had no issues. I never thought I was jeopardizing my miles 2) The marketing logic above - the fact that you earned benefits worth $x and want to make the most of them. 3) With the hope that if I sold a few GPU's, I could use the funds and apply for one confirmed upgrade purchased through United Did I enjoy the few hundred $ - no, I returned it back to the buyer without her asking for it. I really didn't need the money. I don't think this is limited to a few bad apples, there are more than a few - take a few mins and go to craigslist. Everyday there are 100's of new listings. These are placed by loyal United travelers since they are the only ones who get the GPUs. |
Originally Posted by lovestache
(Post 32076313)
Tell me you have not felt bad about unused GPU's/RPU's.
Originally Posted by lovestache
(Post 32076313)
Its not that these people trying to sell them are trying to intentionally trying to defraud the airline.
Originally Posted by lovestache
(Post 32076313)
Also, cheating would be if I got more than the 6 GPUs given out to 1k's. I was just using the 6 given to me (in return for the 100k miles flown and the $12k funds). So I fail to understand that other members will benefit. Infact look at it this way - if the GPU is sold most likely to a regular member, they are at the bottom of the upgrade list - so the 1ks and GS will never have any competition against them since their upgrade will clear first.
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Originally Posted by jsloan
(Post 32076821)
If someone buys an instrument and clears into confirmable space, it can absolutely affect a passenger with higher status later.
This was a particular issue with GS instruments back when you could earn unlimited RPU - it was a total friends and family gravy train, with 1Ks and lower often left out in the cold. |
Any thoughts if UA will be re-considering their account lock policy now that no one wants to fly?! Or they would still refuse money from a passenger ready to give them business (one who is likely to travel since he/she has had a job that involves travel). The whole thing in my viewpoint was arrogance since they had too much business. Wow, have things changed in a month or what?!!
Originally Posted by jsloan
(Post 32076821)
If they weren't trying to defraud the airline, they wouldn't put up wink-wink posts about "advice" along with a "free" GPU. Later you state that you thought UA was OK with it, but if they were OK with it, wouldn't people have just posted "selling an upgrade?" There wouldn't be any point to the charade. I suppose that depends upon how good your "advice" is. I've only ever waitlisted one long-haul flight, and that was P->F on LH. (It cleared, but it wouldn't have been the end of the world if it didn't). If someone buys an instrument and clears into confirmable space, it can absolutely affect a passenger with higher status later. Even as 1k it is rare to see a confirmed upgrade using GPU. It is almost always ( 99%) wait list so |
Originally Posted by lovestache
(Post 32185256)
Any thoughts if UA will be re-considering their account lock policy now that no one wants to fly?! Or they would still refuse money from a passenger ready to give them business (one who is likely to travel since he/she has had a job that involves travel).
Originally Posted by lovestache
(Post 32185299)
The advise is because everyone on CL does it - no one knows implications of why that is included.
Originally Posted by lovestache
(Post 32185299)
Even as 1k it is rare to see a confirmed upgrade using GPU. It is almost always ( 99%) wait list so
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Originally Posted by jsloan
(Post 32185321)
I have never failed to clear a GPU, and the only one I ever waitlisted was during the brief time that you could go from P->F on LH. |
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