bhrubin

<Inappropriate comment removed by moderator.> Every airline wants people to spend as much as possible for the tickets to fly...but the costs of running any flight are almost as much as the revenue for most flights because of competition and supply/demand. Some flights, despite the high fares, still love money. THAT is a fact. It isn't a zero sum game here, folks. Airlines want you to spend as much as possible on tickets, but they can't always control that market. They can control how much they earn from you spending on your credit card, however, and that is PURE PROFIT. Just like fees are pure profit for the airlines, which is why they all have resorted to increased fees and increased frequency of fees to shore up their bottom line.

People think too small on so many levels in this blog. Their personal anecdotes of poor service are lost in the vacuum that their personal anecdotes do not necessarily reflect the experience of everyone, and that the experiences they cannot have on other airlines concomitantly precludes them from drawing conclusions that have merit.

JT_BOS

I think you are very lucky to have 25-30% upgrade success rate. These are all elite heavy routes. Heck, I am shocked to be honest! I hope you keep up your good luck.

Internationally, you did well, as youraward itinerary exapmples showed. To claim any alliance has an advantage is really not supported by the data, since it's pretty much evenly distributed 3 way. I assume they are all saver, with no inflation yet. Perhaps with your 2015 planning, we can see some differences.

Come to think of it, you are essentially a hub captive. That is, you visit all other UA hubs. No wonder you are sticking with UA.

There, case closed. Now I understand.

tom911

I've seen other posters here refer to United as a credit card company that wants to run an airline. Seems like you're going in that direction, too. Someone needs to buy airline tickets or UA won't be flying down the line. I don't see the airline's primary source of revenue being the sale of credit card miles (or economy plus, or snack boxes, or paid upgrades). The airline needs to sell seats and passengers need to buy them. UA cannot afford to have paying passengers, some who buy tens of thousands of dollars in tickets, move on to competitors and fall back on what is now ancillary revenue as their primary source of profit. An airline needs to sell airline tickets.

As to PURE PROFIT, it's a limited profit based on what Chase pays for the miles. If they buy them from United at 1 cent each, a $10,000 credit card purchase will net UA $100 from Chase, or even $150 if you want to go high end and say the miles cost them 1.5 cents each.

Buy a $10,000 ticket anywhere UA flies, and the airline is going to make a lot more than $100-150 off you.

Still thinking about this. Doesn't sound complimentary.

bhrubin

Oh dear. The reality is the reality. The $10,000 ticket is usually a far on a flight that costs the airline a lot of money, so the profit margin is not nearly as high as you think--especially since there aren't that many tickets selling for that fare proportionally.

UA is one of many airlines doing exactly the same thing. UA has its partnership with Chase, American has Citi, and DL has Amex.

The cumulative payout for credit card spend to the airlines from the millions of consumers using them is significant. That payout is pure profit.

No one is saying that United doesn't make money by flying or selling tickets. I am saying that the margin on tickets is razor thin for ALL airlines, so airline tickets not great profit centers for US airlines with competition between the big carriers and the many smaller but growing carriers eating into their market share and forcing them to charge less for many domestic routes. That is why all major US airlines are decreasing their seat supply on domestic markets--in hopes to raise demand and concomitant ticket prices and profit margins--and increasing their seat supply on international routes where the profit centers on tickets are higher.

I'm not sure what the big issue here is. The airlines OBVIOUSLY have shifted their mileage programs to better reward credit card spend (and to a lesser extent ticket spend) more than just flying miles for the overwhelming majority of consumers. I know it, you know it, and everyone knows it. They aren't doing this for the fun of it. They are trying to reward those who provide them with the most profit. Those who fly more don't necessarily profit the airlines more; everyone knows the business/first class paying passengers provide almost all of the profit on ANY flight, with economy passengers merely filling space at the best possible fare the airline change charge to make up as much revenue as it can.

This is how the industry operates. You don't have to like it. But pretending that it isn't true is sheer lunacy.

PV_Premier

I've already left UA. The recent developments in this thread are making me want to leave the UA forum too.

tom911

Let me apologize for diverting this thread off into the credit card area. Clearly no one is leaving UA over credit cards. Let's get back to hearing from those who have left, or from those who have questions about where their business might be better appreciated.

StingWest

Ok, fair enough, but I think it's also reasonable, from the title of this thread, for people to post why they're not leaving United too. Seems to me as if others are coming down a bit hard on people who are not leaving and saying their experience has been good.

bhrubin

Nice post. I am perfectly happy with everyone herein bolting UA--as I'm quite pleased with UA and will be glad to have that many more chances for upgrades and awards.

Let those who don't like UA say their peace...but let those who have had positive UA experiences say theirs, too.

FiveMileFinal

I would be long gone myself but watching this slow-motion trainwreck is too much entertainment to pull away from.

Lest anybody think the hatred for United is limited to social media, just visit any airport they serve.

XLR26

Actually, I believe all the legacy majors have been increasing domestic capacity this year, DL and AA more so than UA if I recall correctly.

JT_BOS

Since this is a good-fun debate, I will point out the following, which will certainly help boost your credibility:

1. I assume you are lifetime gold as a result of MM flier. You never addressed the loss of 2 CR1's and 50% bonus. It must be a non-issue for you. You can continue to not address it of course, as has been.

2. In one of your posts, "We now have 2 million UA miles from PREVIOUS spend". Well, I recommend you spend it fast, as in you own words, "No good business person would keep miles in ANY airline program".

3. As a gold based in LAX/SNA, your CPU rate of 25-30% is shockingly high, to the point it is incredible. Especially considering, "mostly to IAD/DCA, EWR, BOS, SFO, ORD, DEN, and IAH". I think most seasoned FTers would agree with me. But hey, if you say so...

4. In one of your posts, "I fly UA, AA, Alaska, JetBlue, and even SW when necessary...and if absolutely necessary, I'll even fly DL (but only to ATL or SLC from SNA). I fly UA the most, but I fly the others plenty. .... When UA screws up, have they done something to try and make up for the error? YEP! They've automatically sent me more miles or certificates for automatic upgrades for almost EVERY single mistake that I've experienced with them--probably due to my Gold status." Well, I am just so envious of your good fortune for getting issues quickly resolved with proper compensations. Many of us Plat/1K/GS could not say the same thing. By the way, if one flies UA 51%, and others 49%, is it still technically "sticking with UA"?

5. In one of your posts, "UA and Star gets us to where we need to go internationally ALWAYS--and EVERYWHERE, something the other alliances have less capacity to do.". When your own posted flight data show you redeemed premium awards on all 3 alliances, almost evenly. Again, is it still technically "sticking with UA and Star"?

6. In one of your posts, "We fly from SNA preferably, so driving up to LAX is worth it when we can get the nonstop international premium flight (on anyone's metal, but usually UA)". Well, you will be disappointed, since UA has very few nonstop international flights from LAX. Not including Canada and Mexico, I think perhaps 5, or 6 currently? Your own data show only LAX<->LHR. So I don't quite understand the word "usually". If you have more data, that is, nonstop international premium award flights, beginning from LAX, on UA, that is certainly welcome.

7. In one of your posts, "Exceptions exist, but not a single exception has pushed us to AA or DL for an international nonstop from LAX."
Well, it's the same thing. US domestic carriers simply do not have a lot of international flights from LAX, UA included. This statement made it sound like UA is superior, when it's not, at least based on nonstop destinations. Heck, you could be referring to Southwest and your statement will still be true.

8. In one of your posts, "I have much easier times redeeming with UA for international premium awards, even with partners, than I do with BA/AA for OW awards/partners". You seem to justify UA partner's premium award inflation by claiming better availability. But again, your own flight data show otherwise.

9. When an evident equal opportunist claims "I'm sticking with UA and Star.", something is very strange...

bhrubin

Whew! I'll try to hit these one by one!

1. Yes, MM flier (both me and husband). 50% bonus loss doesn't much matter to us since we accumulate miles/points on credit card spend. The CR1 loss was annoying, but again I've been upgraded more often ironically.

2. We couldn't burn our UA miles faster than my husband especially had accumulated them! He has most, I'm down to just 300K now. He also uses miles to send employees on last minute flights for his biz, so they'll get used. We entirely switched to earning UR, MR, and SPG about 2+ years ago.

3. LOL my CPUs have often come from SNA, but almost never from LAX...but most come from BOS or DCA or other places. I listed the places we fly most often, but I go everywhere in USA/Canada for my business. (I work with colleges.)

4. I do fly UA domestically probably 75-80% of the time, FYI. But some routes push me to use AA or DL or even SW when convenient. In the instances where UA has screwed up, I have in the last 2 yrs automatically been given upgrades, miles, and a couple of refunds--nothing major but appropriate. In a few instances, I called my contact at UA for groups who helped me get more. I find most people complain but don't follow up or specifically ask for comp that is appropriate. I follow up, and I always ask for certain comp, so I often get fair comp IMO. I do the same with Aman, FS, St. Regis, Peninsula, SPG, Hyatt and other hotels.

5. LOL I listed some recent flights so it was obvious I don't just fly UA or Star, but most of my international flights are UA and Star. I just didn't list them all! I have no problem taking another carrier when the route is better even if the equipment isn't--like when we took Aeroflot in J using AF miles from MR points LAX-SVO...instead of the originally booked LAX-LHR-FRA-SVO in F-J-J with UA miles on UA/LH/LH. We took LAN in J using BA Avios from MR transfer (with 40% bonus!) LAX-LIM instead of our originally booked SNA-IAH-LIM with UA in J. We are flying LAX-CDG in J on AF in Oct instead of our original LAX-LHR-CDG on UA/BA in J-Y since the route is easier--but the service and seat on UA F is better IMO. We are going LAX-LHR-JNB on UA/SAA in Dec on UA predevaluation miles in F-J. We return JNB-LHR-LAX on UA predevaluation miles in Jan 2015 (altered ticket with no change fee). We've done LAX-ICN on Asiana in Jan in F, but we've also done SFO-PEK and SFO-HKG and LAX-ICN in F on UA a few times each. We've done LAX-SYD several times in F on UA. We've done LAX-LHR in UA F every year at least once for the last decade, sometimes more. My point in mentioning all these is that I have a fair amount of experience comparing multiple international premium classes with UA. And that getting UA premium awards internationally is far easier than getting AA or DL comparably.

6. Yes, LAX has diminished as a source for UA nonstop international flights in the past few years. No question. But we always prefer to fly out of SNA if we can (it's 15 min drive), so we don't mind the SNA-SFO flight to connect through to almost anywhere now if necessary in F. When we can get another carrier from LAX that is F or nonstop in J, though, we consider that strongly.

7. Not sure what you're saying, but I think it has more to do with you than me. People hear what they want to hear based on the argument they want to make.

8. My shared flight info doesn't show squat. It's just a sampling that I've bothered to mention. When we WANT international premium awards for just about ANY date, we can get them on UA or through Star--even if the miles are a lot now. But they are available! When we comparably want international premium awards for other airlines, we most often can't get them or have to shift dates around or keep coming back again and again in the hope to get them...which we sometimes have, but not most often. You might think this is an advantage for AA or DL somehow, but I think it makes UA our best bet for the ways we like to fly. We love the UA F hard product, and we're good with the UA J hard product. There are better hard products out there, but they are not readily available or on the routes we most like to fly. Unless I'm going to Asia, Singapore, Cathay, Asiana, Korean, and other amazing Asian airlines do not help me. Going to Europe/Africa, UA and Star are far better or at least comparable in F (and definitely in J since UA has lie flat beds entirely)...with far more award availability in my experience from the West Coast.

9. Opportunist? I like how UA serves my interests, and I prefer UA over AA and DL. If you don't agree, fair enough! But your need for me to somehow agree with your assessment is not rational.

JT_BOS

I think this horse is pretty dead. I will do just one more:


So now you admit you are not just a gold, you are a gold with inside contact. Your complaint get you more compensation. Hey, if I were you, I would be content and sticking with UA too. How many other golds have inside contact? A lot of times their complaints go to the blackhole. Do you think you are atypical from other, dare I say it, LOWLY GOLDS? What does that say about your objectivity? Do you think telling your happy story without disclosing this affiliation is fair? If you had just mentioned this, that would be the end of the story, because then we all know where you're coming from.

My assessment was your golden story was too glittery, and too atypical, until the part of the inside contact shows up, then it all makes sense.

I am satisfied and done with this debate. Thank you!

Darlox

Bravo sir, bravo.

I would also point out the inconsistency between all of the statements made, and the "Delta Plat" showing in their profile, but that would just be icing.

One of the true joys of the Internet can sometimes be watching the troll under the bridge get beaten by passers-by...

baccarat_king

Perhaps, this person got their Delta Platinum status via :

American Express Centurion Card
- or -
4 Million Miler on Delta (lifetime Platinum Medallion)