GF on NYC<>TYO Please!
This is one of the markets that has the biggest potential demand for GF. Why isn't it offered?
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Because it's already being offered on NH.
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Originally Posted by 5khours
(Post 20828913)
This is one of the markets that has the biggest potential demand for GF.
Or in other words: Is this "biggest potential demand" part of your imagination, or are there hard facts for this (apart from the fact that "potential demand" is per definition "no actual demand" ;)). |
Originally Posted by 5khours
(Post 20828913)
This is one of the markets that has the biggest potential demand for GF. Why isn't it offered?
My theory is UA has completely given up on GF. They wont market it, dont care if they sell it, and just ignore it. If it wasnt so expensive to change the planes to all 2 cabin now, they would do that in a heartbeat but for now, they are happy using it as a carrot to get some full C/D fares back from business travelers I came to this conclusion a few weeks ago when purchasing a one way DOH-JFK ticket in F. UA was double the cost of EK & Etihad and $4000 more then LH/BA/AF. The only was something like this could happen is they just don't care. they certainly are not selling any F seats @ $4-6,000 more then EVERYONE else. Its a shame. I can remember when I started flying UA in 1993. I had to commute twice a month between LAX-HKG and used UA. They had a first class hard product as good as anyone else, even SQ and a soft product that was not the best but not the worst either. Basically UA F was as good as LH F or SQ F. These geniuses running the airline have no experience providing a luxury service. They Scoff at other airlines that do well with F and blame evryone except themselves........... Oh, NRT-EWR??? Fat chance |
I think it has to do with integration issues too. The JFKFO is not a 777 domicile, so the flights would have to be staffed from another base as part of a W trip or deadhead, resulting in long times away from base, and a corresponding 777 trip would likely need to be scheduled with a sCO airplane and crew from a sUA base just to ensure adequate coverage for flying already in the system. With 500 or so pilot retirements coming on the UA side alone this year, the 777 fleet will be impacted disproportionately so it makes sense to simplify the operation, especially this summer before the new hire classes are out.
The other concern is maintenance, as the sUA 777s are quite different from their sCO counterparts. With the initial international cross-fleeting, there were some issues with parts stores at EWR when UA airplanes went tech. Until UA/CO crews are flying together, I don't think we'll see much homogenization of the 777 operation, and it's clear that the 744s will be staying in the legacy UAL system. |
Originally Posted by chinatraderjmr
(Post 20828979)
My theory is UA has completely given up on GF. They wont market it, dont care if they sell it, and just ignore it. If it wasnt so expensive to change the planes to all 2 cabin now, they would do that in a heartbeat but for now, they are happy using it as a carrot to get some full C/D fares back from business travelers
You're right that there was a real opportunity for UA to maintain a competitive product but it appears that there are other uses for that money that they believe can generate a greater return. |
Also, this is a PMCO flight. PMCO did not have 3 class aircraft.
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Originally Posted by rkkwan
(Post 20828967)
Because it's already being offered on NH.
Originally Posted by TT-Jones
(Post 20828975)
Please provide actual evidence for this claim, otherwise the discussion is pointless, I guess.
Or in other words: Is this "biggest potential demand" part of your imagination, or are there hard facts for this (apart from the fact that "potential demand" is per definition "no actual demand" ;)).
Originally Posted by EWR764
(Post 20829066)
I think it has to do with integration issues too.
My theory is UA has completely given up on GF. They wont market it, dont care if they sell it, and just ignore it. If it wasnt so expensive to change the planes to all 2 cabin now, they would do that in a heartbeat but for now, they are happy using it as a carrot to get some full C/D fares back from business travelers I came to this conclusion a few weeks ago when purchasing a one way DOH-JFK ticket in F. UA was double the cost of EK & Etihad and $4000 more then LH/BA/AF. The only was something like this could happen is they just don't care. they certainly are not selling any F seats @ $4-6,000 more then EVERYONE else. Its a shame. I can remember when I started flying UA in 1993. I had to commute twice a month between LAX-HKG and used UA. They had a first class hard product as good as anyone else, even SQ and a soft product that was not the best but not the worst either. Basically UA F was as good as LH F or SQ F. These geniuses running the airline have no experience providing a luxury service. They Scoff at other airlines that do well with F and blame evryone except themselves........... BTW - They do sell some seats at the higher prices....CEO kettles who only fly international occasionally or on routes where UA is the only F product (e.g. NRT<>SEA). |
It's very simple: CO doesn't do int'l F.
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Originally Posted by 1kBill
(Post 20829163)
It's very simple: CO doesn't do int'l F.
The real issue is whether UA sees any real future in the GF product - it appears not. It's unlikely they will make real efforts to market it on new routes. |
Originally Posted by star_world
(Post 20829228)
It's not really that simple - CO doesn't exist, and UA does have aircraft with a GF cabin that they could deploy on this route if they really wanted to (see above for some of the crew-related limitations).
The real issue is whether UA sees any real future in the GF product - it appears not. It's unlikely they will make real efforts to market it on new routes. It's very simple: COdbaUA doesn't do int'l F. They do not have the mind set for the product, pure and simple. It exists presently only because it is already installed and it would cost too much to rip it out. Once that equation changes, say Buh-bye to int'l F on UA. |
Originally Posted by 1kBill
(Post 20829297)
My bad.
It's very simple: COdbaUA doesn't do int'l F. They do not have the mind set for the product, pure and simple. It exists presently only because it is already installed and it would cost too much to rip it out. Once that equation changes, say Buh-bye to int'l F on UA. UA doesn't appear to have had any real interest in intl. F for the last 5-6 years. This is nothing new and it has nothing to do with any merger, other than to say that the merger doesn't seem to have changed their mind. In fact, the existence of intl. F is probably a hindrance to them on routes where they compete against DL for example, as they can sell less J seats. |
Originally Posted by 1kBill
(Post 20829297)
They do not have the mind set for the product, pure and simple. It exists presently only because it is already installed and it would cost too much to rip it out. Once that equation changes, say Buh-bye to int'l F on UA.
1. Stronger US economy. 2. Increased affluence in Asia raising the demand for F. 3. Increased competition from foreign carriers. (I actually think this is having an impact already....I know a lot of people who no longer fly UA/AA/DL because of the better premium offering on NH,SQ, LH, CX, etc.)
Originally Posted by star_world
(Post 20829326)
We're talking about UA - not sure what you're referring to.
UA doesn't appear to have had any real interest in intl. F for the last 5-6 years. This is nothing new and it has nothing to do with any merger, other than to say that the merger doesn't seem to have changed their mind. In fact, the existence of intl. F is probably a hindrance to them on routes where they compete against DL for example, as they can sell less J seats. |
The real question is hard + soft product, not the marketing gimmick name. Given that the numbers are proprietary, nobody on FT knows, but rather than speculating about just how profitable 3 vs 2-class are on this route, I wonder what UA's projections really are.
Even many Fortune 500's are only flying their top people in the first step up from Y. So, on a 2-class, you get BF. On a 2-class, it's C. Needless to say, the market for F does exist and is still very much the vogue for senior people flying from overseas to the USA. Those folks, I doubt, fly UA. |
I must say I had an outstanding GF flight the other day NRT-IAD. Expectations were admittedly low, but I was very impressed with the service. It's not SQ or even LH First, but it has the 'guts' of a quality product. I'd love to see a few more dollars spent to differentiate it from BF.
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