Suspicious Flight Cancelation due to weather
Jan 6, 2014, 11:46 am
#91
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Jan 6, 2014, 11:46 am
#92
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AA has had issues (older fleet and labor issues, which I don't blame on management) and they are working to fix those problem, but the poor OT performance of UAL is the result of INTENTIONALLY SETTING LOW GOALS. Jeff's view is that more than 80% OT would just add expenses.
Check it out, great "PR" going on for UAL... https://www.facebook.com/United
UAL's "savvy" management does not seem to get that we now are in an era that when you mess over folks, they complain in public forums and trash UAL's reputation...
Jan 6, 2014, 11:47 am
#93
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Last edited by gengar; Jan 6, 2014 at 12:57 pm
Jan 6, 2014, 12:00 pm
#94
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Jan 6, 2014, 12:05 pm
#95
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Just for clarification, OP wanted to say "systemically". Systematically is a very different meaning and is almost opposite (step by step) of the OP's meaning.
Jan 6, 2014, 12:11 pm
#96
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That your employer chose to aggressively cross-fleet and run AC types out of hubs with no spares is not an excuse, rather it is a cause of part of the problem.
Early in its merger with NW, DAL decided to stop that type of cross fleeting until they had a unified pilot group, and their cancellation and OT rates improved. Jeff continued dispute having high cancellation rates and a low OT rate.
Cross fleeting is theoretically profitable (it better matches AC range/seat numbers to demand) but when not done well, as UAL has not done it well, it impacts operations. UAL went for the theoretical profit at the expense of running a better opperation.
Early in its merger with NW, DAL decided to stop that type of cross fleeting until they had a unified pilot group, and their cancellation and OT rates improved. Jeff continued dispute having high cancellation rates and a low OT rate.
Cross fleeting is theoretically profitable (it better matches AC range/seat numbers to demand) but when not done well, as UAL has not done it well, it impacts operations. UAL went for the theoretical profit at the expense of running a better opperation.
Jan 6, 2014, 12:15 pm
#97
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...of%20magnitude
Jan 6, 2014, 12:23 pm
#98
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[QUOTE=Eric Westby;22096619]FYI, that's not what the term "order of magnitude" means: it generally means that one value is 10x greater than a comparable value, not merely double. Two orders of magnitude would be 100x greater, not triple. In other words, it refers to a logarithmic scale, not an arithmetic one.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...of%20magnitude[/QUOTE
Thanks for the lesson.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...of%20magnitude[/QUOTE
Thanks for the lesson.
Jan 6, 2014, 12:25 pm
#99
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True, but it doesn't help matters during IROPS when you're still running "United" airlines as two separate subsidiaries.
Jan 6, 2014, 12:40 pm
#100
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I'm not accusing, nor defending, but as has been pointed out, there can be differeing methods to dealing with a massive wx event. One could point out that NK had a plane go off the taxiway at ORD the other day. I 1st found out about it when I was working with one of Spirit's customers yesterday while I was relocated to the CS counter, who was on that aircraft. http://www.ksdk.com/story/weather/20...-hare/4325287/
So you have the issue of fuel lines frozen, ramp congestion with snow removal vehicles everywhere, availability of flight crews, temperatures in the negatives with windchills (not many barriers on the ramp to block the wind), the effectiveness of deicing fluid in arctic temperatures...
Cncling a handfull of flights may get people out to the airport only to have their connecting flights cncld. Staying at home vs getting stranded 1/2 way can be a better option for many.
Yes, there are many different ways to dealing with situations. Some have obvious results, some not so obvious. Throw in the new pilot fatigue and maximum scheduling rules, throw in the tarmac delay policy parts of the passenger bill of rights that is going to hit both UA at ORD for last month and WN at MDW for this week, and the decisions become far more complex. Noone knows "the correct" action until after the storm has blown over and the results are in. Did Spirit do the right thing by flying in the ex and getting an aircraft off the tarmac? Did UA last month when they didnt cncl do the right thing when getting planes left out on the tarmac with no place to park them for hours? DId WN do the right thing this week when they didn't cncl and had over a dozen planes at tiny midway stuck on the tarmac for hours with no place to park? It's really easy to 2nd guess when one doesn't have to deal with the potential impacts when one makes the ez choice and says "fly the schedule" when things go worng. One can only 2nd guess the effects if a disaster occurs, and that would not be so easy to predict. On the other hand, one can easily 2nd guess the effect of cncling the schedule as the negative impacts are immedialty seen. In the end, noone can know what the "right thing" to do was unless one can emliminate 100% of the variables and work in a direct cause and effect world. It's too bad aviation isn't such a simple world where every variable can be eliminated and everything follows a predictable course.
So you have the issue of fuel lines frozen, ramp congestion with snow removal vehicles everywhere, availability of flight crews, temperatures in the negatives with windchills (not many barriers on the ramp to block the wind), the effectiveness of deicing fluid in arctic temperatures...
Cncling a handfull of flights may get people out to the airport only to have their connecting flights cncld. Staying at home vs getting stranded 1/2 way can be a better option for many.
Yes, there are many different ways to dealing with situations. Some have obvious results, some not so obvious. Throw in the new pilot fatigue and maximum scheduling rules, throw in the tarmac delay policy parts of the passenger bill of rights that is going to hit both UA at ORD for last month and WN at MDW for this week, and the decisions become far more complex. Noone knows "the correct" action until after the storm has blown over and the results are in. Did Spirit do the right thing by flying in the ex and getting an aircraft off the tarmac? Did UA last month when they didnt cncl do the right thing when getting planes left out on the tarmac with no place to park them for hours? DId WN do the right thing this week when they didn't cncl and had over a dozen planes at tiny midway stuck on the tarmac for hours with no place to park? It's really easy to 2nd guess when one doesn't have to deal with the potential impacts when one makes the ez choice and says "fly the schedule" when things go worng. One can only 2nd guess the effects if a disaster occurs, and that would not be so easy to predict. On the other hand, one can easily 2nd guess the effect of cncling the schedule as the negative impacts are immedialty seen. In the end, noone can know what the "right thing" to do was unless one can emliminate 100% of the variables and work in a direct cause and effect world. It's too bad aviation isn't such a simple world where every variable can be eliminated and everything follows a predictable course.
Jan 6, 2014, 12:44 pm
#101
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I think the larger question that needs to be asked after this weekend:
Is UA's current procedures for aircraft and crew distribution on their route system flawed?
I think a comparison between AA and UA at ORD is a legitimate one, and it certainly seems as though AA flew more flights over the weekend than UA did. So why is it that there was a disparity?
Is UA's current procedures for aircraft and crew distribution on their route system flawed?
I think a comparison between AA and UA at ORD is a legitimate one, and it certainly seems as though AA flew more flights over the weekend than UA did. So why is it that there was a disparity?
Code:
date | american | united | difference ------------+----------+--------+------------ 2013-12-29 | 154 | 154 | 0 2013-12-30 | 151 | 159 | 8 2013-12-31 | 138 | 130 | -8 2014-01-01 | 128 | 141 | 13 2014-01-02 | 137 | 148 | 11 2014-01-03 | 148 | 150 | 2 2014-01-04 | 137 | 134 | -3 2014-01-05 | 121 | 50 | -71 2014-01-06 | 28 | 41 | 13
Jan 6, 2014, 12:55 pm
#102
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FWIW, on my UA flight from ORD yesterday, our delay was listed as weather related, but seems to have been changed to maintenance. Not sure if that is accurate either way. We appeared to be on time, de-iced, and ready to go... until they realized that they had let on 4 more people than seats.
There were ~85 people flying standby, and I guess they accidentally let people on, perhaps thinking that other ticketed people missed their connections. Those ticketed folks came on and found people in their seats. There was a good amount of confusion. Ultimately, several people had to collect their belongings and de-plane. By the time they had sorted this out, we needed to be de-iced again.
All this after learning my flight was cancelled 9pm on Saturday with no auto-rebook, getting disconnected from the premier line multiple times because of "technical issues," and finally getting through after being on hold for 40 minutes. Not a great day for United.
There were ~85 people flying standby, and I guess they accidentally let people on, perhaps thinking that other ticketed people missed their connections. Those ticketed folks came on and found people in their seats. There was a good amount of confusion. Ultimately, several people had to collect their belongings and de-plane. By the time they had sorted this out, we needed to be de-iced again.
All this after learning my flight was cancelled 9pm on Saturday with no auto-rebook, getting disconnected from the premier line multiple times because of "technical issues," and finally getting through after being on hold for 40 minutes. Not a great day for United.
Jan 6, 2014, 1:12 pm
#103
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So are you saying the spread between UA and AA due to the weather was even worse? In other words, UA generally operates more mainline metal than AA at ORD and due to the storm they operated far less....
Jan 6, 2014, 1:23 pm
#104
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GA's are in the dark about the whereabouts of cockpit cres leading them to board planes and then de-boarding because the flight crews aren't showing up.
Jan 6, 2014, 1:49 pm
#105
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Thank You. Best post on flyertalk in a looong time.
Captain is a no show is actually pretty vague. Might (or, fair enough, also might not be) due to weather.
Also, thread title is pretty inflammatory and IME, should be changed. Even if this particular flight was miscategorized, and it is far from certain that this is the case, "systematically" assumes this is SOP and happens regularly - certainly the OP offers no proof of this whatsoever.
Way not enough info to even know if a DOT complaint is warranted. If you have more, than fine. But doesn't sound like it. A no show because the captain decided to sleep in?Because his inbound got canceled due to weather? These things matter. Information that the captain didn't show is way too vague. And of the latter scenario, that would also be legitimately weather.
Now what if the captain couldn't get out of the driveway because of snow? What if he got into an accident on the road while trying to get to work when he hit a piece of black ice? Is it still unacceptable? Would the OP like to be docked a day of pay or a vacation day because they couldn't get to work after > a foot of snow? Just curious.
Honestly, there's huge storms out there. I understand people are frustrated, but guess what - there is a lot of weather out there, crews/equipment out of position with conditions that are not making it easy to get back to a regular schedule.
The staff at the airport are likely trying to help, and have likely also been working long hours and trying to deal with everyorne, but getting bombarded by customers is not going to help anyone. IME, I've seen some of the worst acts of customer aggression (I.e., yelling) when weather is involved. I'd much rather have to pay for a hotel, even for a few days, if it means I will get home safely.
Best thing to do during weather like this is to rebook as early as possible and wait it out. The flight was canceled. Move to get rebooked and home (or wherever) as soon as possible and move on.
If you're really upset about it, book DL or AA or someone else next time. The hope you aren't flying during a storm of this magnitude next time, which will likely result in some form of a similar rinse and repeat with said other carrier.
Also, thread title is pretty inflammatory and IME, should be changed. Even if this particular flight was miscategorized, and it is far from certain that this is the case, "systematically" assumes this is SOP and happens regularly - certainly the OP offers no proof of this whatsoever.
Way not enough info to even know if a DOT complaint is warranted. If you have more, than fine. But doesn't sound like it. A no show because the captain decided to sleep in?Because his inbound got canceled due to weather? These things matter. Information that the captain didn't show is way too vague. And of the latter scenario, that would also be legitimately weather.
Now what if the captain couldn't get out of the driveway because of snow? What if he got into an accident on the road while trying to get to work when he hit a piece of black ice? Is it still unacceptable? Would the OP like to be docked a day of pay or a vacation day because they couldn't get to work after > a foot of snow? Just curious.
Honestly, there's huge storms out there. I understand people are frustrated, but guess what - there is a lot of weather out there, crews/equipment out of position with conditions that are not making it easy to get back to a regular schedule.
The staff at the airport are likely trying to help, and have likely also been working long hours and trying to deal with everyorne, but getting bombarded by customers is not going to help anyone. IME, I've seen some of the worst acts of customer aggression (I.e., yelling) when weather is involved. I'd much rather have to pay for a hotel, even for a few days, if it means I will get home safely.
Best thing to do during weather like this is to rebook as early as possible and wait it out. The flight was canceled. Move to get rebooked and home (or wherever) as soon as possible and move on.
If you're really upset about it, book DL or AA or someone else next time. The hope you aren't flying during a storm of this magnitude next time, which will likely result in some form of a similar rinse and repeat with said other carrier.