Suspicious Flight Cancelation due to weather
#76
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ORD / DUB / LHR
Programs: UA 1K MM; BA Silver; Marriott Plat
Posts: 8,243
#77
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Programs: Marriott Ambassador, UA Mileage Plus 1K, AA Executive Plat, Marriott Ambassador Elite
Posts: 2,329
Got to disagree with you.
In the former case, UA should have some reserve pilots at ORD on standby. ORD is one of their largest hub, I'm sure there are plenty of pilots based out of there.
In the latter case, if the passengers are able to make it to the airport, why can't the pilots?
In the former case, UA should have some reserve pilots at ORD on standby. ORD is one of their largest hub, I'm sure there are plenty of pilots based out of there.
In the latter case, if the passengers are able to make it to the airport, why can't the pilots?
#78
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
Early in its merger with NW, DAL decided to stop that type of cross fleeting until they had a unified pilot group, and their cancellation and OT rates improved. Jeff continued dispute having high cancellation rates and a low OT rate.
Cross fleeting is theoretically profitable (it better matches AC range/seat numbers to demand) but when not done well, as UAL has not done it well, it impacts operations. UAL went for the theoretical profit at the expense of running a better opperation.
#79
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
As your post noted you (as does evidently Jeff and Co) think its smart to cancel thousands of planes and strand tens of thousands of passengers as its more profitable than trying to get them to their destination. It was very telling admission of your (and UAL's) mindset.
#80
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: UA PremExec
Posts: 732
So many assumptions with no facts in evidence in this thread.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...storm/4337773/
Each airline will get impacted differently because not every airline has the exact same routes, planes, staffing at each airport. UA doesn't have an unlimited supply of reserve pilots at each airport.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...storm/4337773/
Each airline will get impacted differently because not every airline has the exact same routes, planes, staffing at each airport. UA doesn't have an unlimited supply of reserve pilots at each airport.
I think you are wrong about ORD, AA has a roughly similar portion of its traffic as "connecting" traffic. But I do think you are correct about UAL's decission here, and its nice to see someone come clean on it.
UAL had two choices:
(1) It could try to get folks to their destinations. Doing so would involve paying large amounts of OT pay and other expenses and at the end of the day having some planes or people be out of place. Passengers may be late, but they get to their destination, and we have all been in "weather events" and when an airline goes the extra mile, we are grateful, it ads to our loyalty. This is what DAL and AA chose to do.
(2) it can cancel flights, and tell passengers to go stuff it. It then offers them flights in a week, tells them they can't get a refund and UAL will not pay any of their expenses. This saves UAL money AND has the benefit of pushing up PRASM as flights are then 100% packed for a few days and UAL has flown fewer ASMs system wide. However, it angers a lot of people and you get what you see on UAL's facebook page - which is thousands of upset people. Hopefully, many of these folks file DOT complaints about things like refusing to refund tickets or trying to charge a change fee.
]Regardless, as you admit, with the current management, doing the right thing, or trying to get people to their destination on time, or at all, is about the 18th priority.
UAL had two choices:
(1) It could try to get folks to their destinations. Doing so would involve paying large amounts of OT pay and other expenses and at the end of the day having some planes or people be out of place. Passengers may be late, but they get to their destination, and we have all been in "weather events" and when an airline goes the extra mile, we are grateful, it ads to our loyalty. This is what DAL and AA chose to do.
(2) it can cancel flights, and tell passengers to go stuff it. It then offers them flights in a week, tells them they can't get a refund and UAL will not pay any of their expenses. This saves UAL money AND has the benefit of pushing up PRASM as flights are then 100% packed for a few days and UAL has flown fewer ASMs system wide. However, it angers a lot of people and you get what you see on UAL's facebook page - which is thousands of upset people. Hopefully, many of these folks file DOT complaints about things like refusing to refund tickets or trying to charge a change fee.
]Regardless, as you admit, with the current management, doing the right thing, or trying to get people to their destination on time, or at all, is about the 18th priority.
Yes, airlines are impacted differently. No one denies this. But there are also differences in how they choose to respond even to the same impacts. So the question is whether canceling all TATL flights is the because UA is impacted differently than AA or because the response it chooses is different.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jan 6, 2014 at 3:48 pm Reason: merge
#81
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ORD / DUB / LHR
Programs: UA 1K MM; BA Silver; Marriott Plat
Posts: 8,243
Do you believe that UA's approach to handling large-scale disruptions like this results in more passengers being stranded? Please explain.
#82
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 10,898
That your employer chose to aggressively cross-fleet and run AC types out of hubs with no spares is not an excuse, rather it is a cause of part of the problem.
Early in its merger with NW, DAL decided to stop that type of cross fleeting until they had a unified pilot group, and their cancellation and OT rates improved. Jeff continued dispute having high cancellation rates and a low OT rate.
Cross fleeting is theoretically profitable (it better matches AC range/seat numbers to demand) but when not done well, as UAL has not done it well, it impacts operations. UAL went for the theoretical profit at the expense of running a better opperation.
Early in its merger with NW, DAL decided to stop that type of cross fleeting until they had a unified pilot group, and their cancellation and OT rates improved. Jeff continued dispute having high cancellation rates and a low OT rate.
Cross fleeting is theoretically profitable (it better matches AC range/seat numbers to demand) but when not done well, as UAL has not done it well, it impacts operations. UAL went for the theoretical profit at the expense of running a better opperation.
#83
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SFO/SJC
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 14,854
Refunds:
Refunds are permitted for processing to the original form of payment and must be requested from United Airlines. Go to www.united.com/refunds and submit the refund form.
Policies also apply to consolidator, internet tickets, and MileagePlus award tickets.
Refunds are permitted for processing to the original form of payment and must be requested from United Airlines. Go to www.united.com/refunds and submit the refund form.
Policies also apply to consolidator, internet tickets, and MileagePlus award tickets.
Baze - you're a regular in here - Don't you know by now that you should never that facts get in the way of an FT rant.
#85
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ORD
Programs: UA 1K 2006-2013
Posts: 334
I think the larger question that needs to be asked after this weekend:
Is UA's current procedures for aircraft and crew distribution on their route system flawed?
I think a comparison between AA and UA at ORD is a legitimate one, and it certainly seems as though AA flew more flights over the weekend than UA did. So why is it that there was a disparity? Is there something inherent in the way that UA allots planes and crew such that if one hub (or more) falls due to weather, it cripples the rest of the system much more than other airlines? I'd love to hear from someone (maybe from UA) with more knowledge of this than myself.
Winter and summer storms are certainly problematic, and I appreciate the difficulty in working around them for an airline. But it's not like they are unexpected. Over the duration of the winter, there are going to be storms. And, imho, there should be systems in place that allow the airline to operate more smoothly than they did over the weekend. Not perfectly, of course -- but more smoothly. Is there a way to make it so that things aren't so incredibly intertwined that it wreaks havoc on the system?
And it's not simply the flight logistics, but the dreadful technical performance of the call centers. Major storms happen. The fact appears to be is that UA is unwilling to spend the money or time to ensure as smooth an experience as possible for its customers. I'm not speaking of "normal" call volume issues, but things like the vast number of reports of being disconnected when waiting, crazy hold times and then calling back and getting brief hold times, the web site buckling under pressure, etc. And it seems as though calls to get things done just take so much more time than they did in the past...
Storms are going to happen -- but is there a better way to prepare so that they are ready to handle the situation? I know it won't be perfect like a sunny day, but it seems it could be handled much better....
Is UA's current procedures for aircraft and crew distribution on their route system flawed?
I think a comparison between AA and UA at ORD is a legitimate one, and it certainly seems as though AA flew more flights over the weekend than UA did. So why is it that there was a disparity? Is there something inherent in the way that UA allots planes and crew such that if one hub (or more) falls due to weather, it cripples the rest of the system much more than other airlines? I'd love to hear from someone (maybe from UA) with more knowledge of this than myself.
Winter and summer storms are certainly problematic, and I appreciate the difficulty in working around them for an airline. But it's not like they are unexpected. Over the duration of the winter, there are going to be storms. And, imho, there should be systems in place that allow the airline to operate more smoothly than they did over the weekend. Not perfectly, of course -- but more smoothly. Is there a way to make it so that things aren't so incredibly intertwined that it wreaks havoc on the system?
And it's not simply the flight logistics, but the dreadful technical performance of the call centers. Major storms happen. The fact appears to be is that UA is unwilling to spend the money or time to ensure as smooth an experience as possible for its customers. I'm not speaking of "normal" call volume issues, but things like the vast number of reports of being disconnected when waiting, crazy hold times and then calling back and getting brief hold times, the web site buckling under pressure, etc. And it seems as though calls to get things done just take so much more time than they did in the past...
Storms are going to happen -- but is there a better way to prepare so that they are ready to handle the situation? I know it won't be perfect like a sunny day, but it seems it could be handled much better....
#87
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ORD / DUB / LHR
Programs: UA 1K MM; BA Silver; Marriott Plat
Posts: 8,243
It really is amusing to see what the same people can turn into (yet another) UA bashing thread. Facts just don't matter.
#88
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ORD
Programs: UA 1K 2006-2013
Posts: 334
While you and I understand the difference in agents (mainline v. ex) as well as the rules, my friends didn't. So they took the word of the agent as the rules. And why wouldn't they -- from my friend's perspective the agent works for United...
They are going to follow up with a complaint to United and it will probably be resolved in the end. But that's a tangible example of misinformation from the United network.
#89
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: LAS ORD
Programs: AA Pro (mostly B6) OZ♦ (flying BR/UA), BA Silver Hyatt LT, Wynn Black, Cosmo Plat, Mlife Noir
Posts: 5,992
What happened with AA at ORD? According to flightstats, UA is still cancelling a higher percentage of its scheduled flights at ORD than AA is over the next couple hours...?
#90
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Our Nation's Capital
Programs: UA 1K, Marriott BonVoy LT Titanium Elite, National Executive Elite
Posts: 832