Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Jeff comments on loss of "unmanaged" corporate traffic/PRASM at JP Morgan conference.

Jeff comments on loss of "unmanaged" corporate traffic/PRASM at JP Morgan conference.

Old Mar 4, 13, 5:38 pm
  #46  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K, BA Silver, Accor Plat, Marriott Gold, Carlson Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 21,741
Originally Posted by boolean64 View Post
Imagine that. The 1K who normally flies last minute on business to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars a year decides to stop flying your airline altogether (basically what Smisek admitted here). And why? Because you decided it was worth more to get a extra $150 out of the guy who never flies instead of "give away" the upgrade for "free" because the 1K happened to buy a cheap ticket for the weekend to visit his son in college. After all, apparently the 1Ks only care about on-time performance and a smile from the front-line employees. Oops.

Maybe they did the math and found out that (X*$150)>($1K), which is not hard to conceive. Lets say a 1K spends $55k a year on UA. Thats selling one $150 upgrade a day to compensate for that supposed lost revenue. Assuming they sell, lets say, 100 systemwide, $150 upgrades a day, and thats a very low estimate - that can compensate for 100 1Ks leaving. Not to mention, those 1Ks are also a drain on the system in other ways in terms of having to provide perks.

we dont know how the beancounters work.

Last edited by rankourabu; Mar 4, 13 at 5:44 pm
rankourabu is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 5:42 pm
  #47  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Silver
Posts: 1,083
Originally Posted by UA-NYC View Post
It's operations only with him - don't think he'll ever address the loyalty factor (or lack thereof now). Apparently not important to business travelers.
DL has been focusing even more on operations and product enhancements, rather than loyalty program. And DL is doing great. Why should UA do anything different? A reliable operation is clearly what business travelers want the most.
blug is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 5:45 pm
  #48  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: ABE
Programs: DL DM, IHG Spire, Mariott Platinum (UA SI) Avis First, National Executive
Posts: 764
Originally Posted by tuolumne View Post
unable or unwilling to shoulder any of the blame for his mismangement. His answer above was a C-grade dance response as it didnt specifically address th question.

This, of course,is all excludng his incopetent leadership of the combined company.
A. I do not see "mismanagement" when they are finally making $. And they are making $ and this is the job of a CEO

B. I would not call anyone "incopetent" (sic) if I were spelling like a 5th grader.
IflyfromABE is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 5:51 pm
  #49  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The OC LAX-SNA
Programs: BA Gold, AF/KL Gold, AA LT PLT 2mm, TP Gold *G
Posts: 19,970
Originally Posted by blug View Post
DL has been focusing even more on operations and product enhancements, rather than loyalty program. And DL is doing great.
Dunno about your conclusion. I didn't miss a single upgrade as a Diamond last year.
SFO777 is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 5:56 pm
  #50  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: RDU
Programs: UA1K 2MM, Hilton Gold, Marriott cardboard
Posts: 1,687
Originally Posted by NathanJ View Post
Honestly I think that is most consumers. They buy based on price, not brand loyalty.

-Nathan
That's about to be me. I need to be in FRA and US will get me there for a $3K Z fare and UA wants $4.5K.

So, I'll fly US and hope UA credits the miles before the end of the year.
dulcamara is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 6:00 pm
  #51  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chicago: ORD, MDW
Programs: United Million Mile Flyer, Hilton Silver, Marriott Gold, DL, AA WN
Posts: 500
Originally Posted by NathanJ View Post
Honestly I think that is most consumers. They buy based on price, not brand loyalty.

-Nathan
As I noted in a post on another thread, until recently, I rarely considered flying any airline but UA. Mileage Plus and the earned benefits - including Million Mile Status - kept me coming back.

Now, while I appreciate Economy+, I look around to see what the other airlines -including (God forgive me) Southwest- are offering.

After all, as someone else stated in this thread: "If all they want is on time performance..."

There are other choices -especially fto/rom most major airports.
Karl-MDW is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 6:07 pm
  #52  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Phoenix
Programs: UA 1K 2MM, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by MatthewLAX View Post
(shaking head)

Is this the inevitable wave of the future?
I'm a 1K, traveling this week, PHX-DEN, on a 2PM flt Thurs. There will be no upgrade for me. 20 SEATS!!!!Same as last week on PHX-EWR. 20 Seats!!!!

I've been a 1K for 14 straight years. People have always asked me why I don't fly US Air(PHX Based). I told them mainly because of the way United has treated this "unmanaged" flyer. It was always my choice. I have to be freakin nuts to continue this behavior.

I accepted the offer on American to EXP Plat in 2012. I flew 10 flights...all were upgraded. I thought, it must get better at United so I'll stay....It got worse.

I'm 100k away from 2MM. Why bother...If I don't upgraded out of PHX as a 1K, then certainly it won't happen as a plat. I get all the same benefits as a gold.

I only have myself to blame. I'm done foaming like Pavlov's dog.
Rogerdodger is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 6:32 pm
  #53  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: wandering expat
Posts: 44,241
Originally Posted by bocastephen View Post
If this is really UA's future approach - why even maintain the Elite tiers of the program? Just sell packaged bundles or a la carte selections of benefits for domestic and international itineraries that cover everything from baggage allowances, IFE, onboard meals, lounge access, upgrades, etc. Everyone is a nobody until they take a $300 ticket and make it $400 with package A, or $600 with an upgrade to F that includes package A and a bigger seat. Fly 10k miles a year or 300K miles, it doesn't matter - it's all about revenue per ticket, not per year.
It isn't their future approach, it is the present. The only reason they don't abandon MP altogether is that it would put them at a competitive disadvantage. What they will likely do is the same thing DL has done in turning SkyMiles into SkyPesos.
halls120 is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 6:52 pm
  #54  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: CO Platinum 1K, United 1K, SPG LT Platinum, National Executive Elite, Platinum TSA Hater
Posts: 36,094
Just a side data point...I checked every daily flight today between the two cities I travel most often, through a major hub - from morning to night, more than 3/4 of the flights had upgrades that totaled 80% of F capacity or more. Assuming the buy-ups are (should not be) appearing here, I see a very healthy rate of upgrades for Elite customers.

I understand certain city pairs are going to be hard - SFO>anywhere, DEN> California/SEA/ORD, EWR/California, etc. - but if everyone goes to the PDA site and does some statistical sampling on their usual routes over a few days, are you all seeing the number of upgraded passengers at 20% or less of the F capacity? Or are the complaints specific to a collection of highly traveled hubs or city pairs?
bocastephen is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 6:57 pm
  #55  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Northern California
Programs: I want to be free! Free!
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by bocastephen View Post
Just a side data point...I checked every daily flight today between the two cities I travel most often, through a major hub - from morning to night, more than 3/4 of the flights had upgrades that totaled 80% of F capacity or more. Assuming the buy-ups are (should not be) appearing here, I see a very healthy rate of upgrades for Elite customers.

I understand certain city pairs are going to be hard - SFO>anywhere, DEN> California/SEA/ORD, EWR/California, etc. - but if everyone goes to the PDA site and does some statistical sampling on their usual routes over a few days, are you all seeing the number of upgraded passengers at 20% or less of the F capacity? Or are the complaints specific to a collection of highly traveled hubs or city pairs?
UA's own claims of YoY revenue increases from upgrade sales tell you how much worse off elites are these days, you don't need the anecdotes. Sure, some of that revenue increase is E+, but we know it's upgrades too.
aCavalierInCoach is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 7:03 pm
  #56  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,525
Originally Posted by mitchmu View Post
Your list status is worse because they are selling the seats that they used to give away as upgrades.

Not more elites.
Mitch, not sure if this is entirely true. TODs don't go on the list, they get a seat. Now if they sell 3 or 5 TODs then the list is that number longer at the end as the GS/1K person (or on a hirer fare/instrument) is ahead of you, not in F, but I also think that there are more elites than before AND Silvers/Gold/PLTs are jumping the line because they got a Y/B/M fare OR are on an instrument or miles.

Originally Posted by cova View Post

Is DL and AA losing "managed" corporate travelers?
Originally Posted by UA-NYC View Post
Nope, DL has proudly said they're gaining them (believe on their Q4/EOY earnings call)...sure someone can post the link to it. Believe AA has revealed the same thing.
Ditto this. Today at the JP Morgan conference Anderson said that their corporate sales are up 8% y/y in February. That is major, and helps explain why DL's PRASM is so good. AA has said that their corporate sales are also up, don't have a current number (but the web has one I am sure... )

Originally Posted by blug View Post
DL has been focusing even more on operations and product enhancements, rather than loyalty program. And DL is doing great. Why should UA do anything different? A reliable operation is clearly what business travelers want the most.
Originally Posted by SFO777 View Post
Dunno about your conclusion. I didn't miss a single upgrade as a Diamond last year.
It depends on what you want. DL still upgrades folks domestically like UA used to. So if you want upgrades, DL is a far, far better program. DL also just did a deal with *wood that is actually quite rich. If I used both programs it would be about another 50K starpoints and another 25K skypesos, nice extra benifit.

UA clearly had an advantage in redeptions over skypesos a year ago, but with ON closed off and UA releasing no F/C awards at saver, MP looks more and more like skypesos.

SWUs were clearly better, but are now similar in their lack of usability to DLs.

I think that AA's program is clearly superior to both MP and skypesos at this point overall at EXP, but I don't think its fare to say DL has given up on a loyalty program, they are actually increasing the benfits.

Originally Posted by halls120 View Post
It isn't their future approach, it is the present. The only reason they don't abandon MP altogether is that it would put them at a competitive disadvantage. What they will likely do is the same thing DL has done in turning SkyMiles into SkyPesos.
Yes, they want to turn MP into SkyPesos, and DL wants to make skypesos more like the old MP! Funny how that is happening....
spin88 is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 7:07 pm
  #57  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: wandering expat
Posts: 44,241
Originally Posted by bocastephen View Post

I understand certain city pairs are going to be hard - SFO>anywhere, DEN> California/SEA/ORD, EWR/California, etc. - but if everyone goes to the PDA site and does some statistical sampling on their usual routes over a few days, are you all seeing the number of upgraded passengers at 20% or less of the F capacity? Or are the complaints specific to a collection of highly traveled hubs or city pairs?
My usual routes are IAD/SFO and IAD/LAX, and since they pulled all the WBs off those routes and started aggressively selling UGs, my UG clearance rate went from above 80% to below 50%.
halls120 is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 7:12 pm
  #58  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Northern California
Programs: I want to be free! Free!
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by halls120 View Post
My usual routes are IAD/SFO and IAD/LAX, and since they pulled all the WBs off those routes and started aggressively selling UGs, my UG clearance rate went from above 80% to below 50%.
out of IAD, I think you're going to see the gov't "full fare" but not really full fare-effect.
aCavalierInCoach is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 7:13 pm
  #59  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Programs: UA *G 1MM LT United Club & Global Entry
Posts: 2,755
Any company where the lawyers and/or bean counters are running the business is in trouble...


SunLover
SunLover is offline  
Old Mar 4, 13, 7:18 pm
  #60  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: CO Platinum 1K, United 1K, SPG LT Platinum, National Executive Elite, Platinum TSA Hater
Posts: 36,094
Originally Posted by aCavalierInCoach View Post
UA's own claims of YoY revenue increases from upgrade sales tell you how much worse off elites are these days, you don't need the anecdotes. Sure, some of that revenue increase is E+, but we know it's upgrades too.
I understand that data point, but I'm trying to figure out what effect is being felt by folks here and whether the effect is restricted to specific hubs and/or routes while others experience no difference.
bocastephen is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: