LondonElite

WineCountryUA

Let's stay out of the BREXIT discussion in this forum -- plenty of that elsewhere. Let's stay focused on helping folks with their present EU 261 issues. UA is going to have no influence on the future of those issues.

WineCountryUA
UA coModerator

mpiotrow

Regarding filing for EC261 where from flights in the past (last December), how long do I have to make a claim, or attempt to get UA to comply with Wegener? I initially contacted them immediately upon return from a flight where I flew CDG-SFO-DEN...CDG-SFO was on time, but SFO-DEN was delayed 4hrs 53min. When I emailed Customer Care at the time, I received a reply stating the following:
I never followed up again, as I did not (and still do not) fully understand the Wegener decision, or know how to go about asking for the full amount. Anyone have any info that could be helpful? Or am I past any sort of cutoff date because it's been 8 or so months ago?

I don't remember the exact cause of the delay from SFO-DEN, but it was not weather related. I have the original UA Case ID number from when I emailed them from their online form, but I don't have any record of what I said in that message because you don't get a copy of that when you get the auto-generated response.
Thanks!

jsloan

I believe you have something like three years.

The Wegener decision is simple: The EU court decided that an airline was still responsible for compensation on a covered journey, even if the airline was non-EU and the delay in question was wholly on a non-EU leg.

As for next steps; based on recent reports, UA has been playing hardball on this. You can write back and ask them to reconsider, perhaps citing the Wegener case by name (or, if you want to be less confrontational, "I read about a Royal Air Maroc case where the European courts said that non-EU connections were still included if the itinerary originated in the EU."). However, you may need to file a court case in the country of departure. There are some firms that routinely take these cases in exchange for a cut of the payout.

Weather can only be used as an extenuating circumstance under EC.261 if it's truly exceptional.

threeoh

The only cutoff date is the statute of limitations which varies by EU country. Not sure in France by in the UK it's 6 years, so likely you are not past that.

The Wegener court decision says that if your ex-EU flight is delayed (but less than 3 hours) and that causes you to misconnect at an airport not in the EU, and you are thus delayed more than 3 hours to your final destination, you get compensation. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...%3A62017CJ0537 .

The more recent court case CS and Others v České aerolinie a.s. says that even if the first flight (from the EU) is on-time, and your connection in a non-EU country on a non-EU airline to a non-EU destination is delayed, then you are still owed compensation....and it's the ex-EU operating carrier that owes it to you (even though they operated their flight on schedule). https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/...cp190095en.pdf

Narrative: "CS and Others" were flying PRG-AUH-BKK. Their PRG-AUH flight operated by OK landed on time, but their connecting flight AUH-BKK operated by (non-EU airline) EY was delayed significantly, and that was (according to the court) enough to trigger compensation, and OK had to pay it even though OK's flight was on time.

jsloan

Good point. UA may be interpreting Wegener to require a delay on the ex-EU flight, although I don't think that was the court's intent. the CS and Others case makes that clear. (The main focus of the CS and Others case was a codeshare; OK had to pay because they sold the AUH-BKK flight under an OK code).

Germanfflyer

As a rule of thump ANY weather condition that occurs more than 3 times a year will NOT be accepted as exeptional by an EU court!

rixdorf

I flew on UA 963 from Berlin to Newark on 31 July. We were 5 hours delayed in taking off as the incoming flight was delayed by 5 hours.

I received an email stating "UA 963: Your plane is on its way from Newark, and is delayed because of thermostat maintenance and thunderstorms over the East Coast area that occurred last night. We're sorry for this inconvenience."

When we got on the flight the weather was not mentioned and instead the pilot told us that the incoming flight (UA 962 on 30 July I believe) - had to return to the gate in Newark and had technical problems and that was the cause.

Did anyone else fly from Newark on 30 July and experienced delays because of weather?

To top it off we were coming into land at Newark on 31 July and the airport was then closed because of thunder and we were then rerourted to Cleveland. We ended up being delayed for 9 hours total, but we were already 5 hours late when we approached Newark and had to be redirected. If we had been on time or even only a couple of hours late then we would have landed before the storms.

I believe I am eligible for compensation under the EU EC261/2004 regulation, but in the couple of emails we have exchanged United are blaming the whole thing on weather and not mentioning the technical problems. I am planning to appeal and escalate it, but I need to gather data.

Can someone tell me how I can gather information, such as looking at other flights departing Newark on 30 July to see if there were significant delays through the airport. Or if I can look up specifically UA 962 departing Newark to Berlin on 30 July and to see the reason for the delay of this flight?

I have only been offered $100 in United vouchers that expire in 12 months. And as I am European and have no planned trips to the US in the near future this is pretty useless to me.

Thanks in advance for any help.

mpiotrow

You might want to consult this thread (especially the last few posts), but from what another user posted "Weather can only be used as an extenuating circumstance under EC.261 if it's truly exceptional.", and as someone else followed up "As a rule of thumb ANY weather condition that occurs more than 3 times a year will NOT be accepted as exceptional by an EU court!"

jsloan

That's the end of your investigation. The EU courts have not seen fit to allow airlines to use a delayed inbound plane as an excuse. They expect the airline to have a spare.

There is a thread on the board about best practices for requesting EC.261 compensation.

hughw

This may be a bridge to far for some of us, but I've found forms online where you can take a complaint directly to the national authorities from where the flight originated if you're not satisfied with the airline's response.

Here's the general English complaint form...https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...nt_form_en.pdf

Here's the addresses for all the national authorities... https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf

And in my case, leaving from France, here's the form in French from the French authorities. you need to download the PDF by clicking the appropriate place on the top of the form
https://www.formulaires.modernisatio...numCerfa=13675

I'm not sure in what way this helps resolve with the airline. The form actually states "Please note that the competent authorities of Member States cannot in general take binding decisions on airlines in respect of individual complaints. If you are still not satisfied with the airline's response, even following the answer from the competent authority, you will have to pursue the matter in Court or through alternative dispute resolution." But I would guess that it does put some additional pressure on them to settle.

mmthomps

Well, my daughter got United's response, as predicted, that since her flight from ATH-EWR was delayed only 2:52, she wasn't entitled to compensation. Her final destination wasn't EWR, however, but LAX, and she was delayed about 12 hours to LAX. They offered her $200 in ETC. She's written an appeal, but not very optimistic that anything will come of it.

rixdorf

I have exchanged a few emails with United Customer Care but so far they have only offered me $100 in vouchers when I clearly think I am entitled to 600 under the EU directive.

I see mentions of a form for doing EU 261 claims against United, but scanning the thread I have not found it. Can someone send me a link? I would like to exhaust the complaint process with United first before I continue to other methods.

If there is not an official form, what is the next step? Go to my national authority (Germany) first and then as a last resort use airhelp

threeoh

It's more nuanced than that. I read the CAA's advice to airlines for determining cause and it recommends the airline consider only one level of knock-on effects from extraordinary weather events, and only at non-hub airports where it is not reasonable to hold spare planes and crews.

threeoh

Most EU airlines have a form, but UA does not. The only way to request is through the normal customer service channels.

Your options are:

(1) keep trying with United (but you are already using the right channel, they are just denying your claim to hope you go away)

(2) go to national authority, which has no power to compel UA to do anything but could apply pressure or give you a clearer case if they agree with you

(3) sue in German court

(4) use a private contingency-based service that will pursue your claim for free but take a cut of the compensation

(5) give up and go home

The EU really needs to make some kind of penalty for improperly-denied claims, otherwise it's in the airlines' interests to just deny deny deny and wait for someone to file a lawsuit.