Best Practices for Filing EU 261 Claims Against United? {Archive}
Dec 10, 2018, 5:32 pm
#1201
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: NYC
Programs: CO
Posts: 608
Yea my original flight a 12:05 LHR-ORD departure today 12/10 was cancelled and I rebooked onto a 3:05 departure that was then delayed till after 7pm. I then rebooked myself onto a 12pm departure connecting via EWR and ultimately arrived (just now) about 3hrs and 10 min after my original scheduled arrival time. I don’t think the double claim applies here because had my second flight been on time it would have arrived about the same time as this one I’m on. My issue right now is UA is saying that I’m only entitled to 50% of the 600euro because I arrived less than 4hrs after I was originally supposed to. I am reading upthread that the new rules entitle me to the full 600 since it was greater than 3hrs but can’t find any definitive language that supports it out there. Can anyone provide a link so that I can fight UA or are they in fact correct? When I search the rules I find seem to support what they are saying but I’m not sure if it’s stale information given what I’m reading here in this thread. Thoughts on how to handle?
Dec 10, 2018, 5:41 pm
#1202
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: UA Plat MM, CM Plat, Amex Plat, Hertz CP, Hyatt Globalist, SPG Gold, Vons Club
Posts: 6,849
Bummer, I thought you had the double claim! That would've been a good one! Not sure about the three-hour rule and 50% so I'll leave that up to others. Glad you're finally home.
Dec 10, 2018, 6:28 pm
#1203
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,531
I am reading upthread that the new rules entitle me to the full 600 since it was greater than 3hrs but can’t find any definitive language that supports it out there. Can anyone provide a link so that I can fight UA or are they in fact correct? When I search the rules I find seem to support what they are saying but I’m not sure if it’s stale information given what I’m reading here in this thread. Thoughts on how to handle?
- The original regulation (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...4R0261:EN:HTML) doesn't say anything about compensation for delay, only standard of care. But it does specify compensation for cancellation, with different amounts depending on when you arrive (via "re-routing") to your final destination. There was no compensation if they re-route (i.e. book you on other flights) to get you there within 2 hours of the originally scheduled time and departing no more than 1 hour before your original departure time, and they may reduce the compensation by 50% if the delay in arrival is less than 4 hours (for TATL flights, other time limits for shorter flights).
- Sturgeon vs. Condor (http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/legal_servic.../07c402_en.pdf) established that you are due the cancellation compensation if your flight was delayed by "more than three hours". Three hours is the rule because that's the maximum an alternate re-routing could take (leaving 1 hour earlier and arriving 2 hours later) in the case of a cancellation without them paying comp. This creates the "3 to 4 hour" windows for delays where you're due 50%, and 4+ hours is 100%. As far as I can tell the window is 2-4 hours for cancellation and 3-4 hours for delays [for TATL]. This was reaffirmed in Nelson v Deutsche Lufthansa AG (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...%3A62010CJ0581)
- According to one person on this thread, the 50% rule was "thrown out" about 10 years ago, but I'm having trouble finding any info on that. The Sturgeon ruling specifically says they may still reduce the payment by 50% if the delay [on TATL journey] is less than 4 hours, in its section on proportionality. The 2012 Nelson ruling says the same thing. So not sure where that's coming from.
- You are not due comp (but are due standard of care i.e. meals and hotels) if the delay or cancellation is due to "extraordinary circumstances", which has a zillion other court cases about what constitutes extraordinary and how many layers of knock-on effects (i.e. inbound is delayed by weather, you are on the outbound -- does that count?) etc. However, mechanical issues definitely count as non-extraordinary.
- Switzerland, which enacted the same regulation, is not in the EU and so is not bound by the various court rulings.
- Various court cases (including most recently Wegener) define delay as when the aircraft door is opened at the next destination or stopover (not connection) on your ticket, including missed connections and even if the delay occurs entirely outside of the EU.
Dec 10, 2018, 7:58 pm
#1204
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1
I have a similar situation. I was due to fly out on Friday FRA-EWR-LAX, but on the day of the flight, the first leg was delayed and then cancelled. I was able to get rerouted FRA-IAH-LAX. Both of those flights ended delayed, so I landed in LAX 3 hours and 45 minutes after the arrival time of my original itinerary.
If I understand correctly, since it was >3500km and <4 hours, I'd only receive 300 Euros compensation?
What doesn't make sense to me, is that if the original flight were not cancelled but also delayed, a >3 hour delay on a >3500km flight out of Europe would entitle a traveler to 600 Euros. Seems like a strange distinction to make.
If I understand correctly, since it was >3500km and <4 hours, I'd only receive 300 Euros compensation?
What doesn't make sense to me, is that if the original flight were not cancelled but also delayed, a >3 hour delay on a >3500km flight out of Europe would entitle a traveler to 600 Euros. Seems like a strange distinction to make.
Dec 11, 2018, 8:35 am
#1205
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
Programs: DL, AF and KL - UA - *G
Posts: 2,239
100% after 3 hours - the differnce between delay and cancellation was thown out a long time ago....
It is 3 hours anything =100% !
I am not sure but I think it was the AF case that made that clear....
It is 3 hours anything =100% !
I am not sure but I think it was the AF case that made that clear....
Dec 11, 2018, 9:06 am
#1206
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,531
63. It is important to point out that the compensation payable to a passenger under Article 7(1) of Regulation No 261/2004 may be reduced by 50% if the conditions laid down in Article 7(2) of the regulation are met. Even though the latter provision refers only to the case of re-routing of passengers, the Court finds that the reduction in the compensation provided for is dependent solely on the delay to which passengers are subject, so that nothing precludes the application mutatis mutandis of that provision to compensation paid to passengers whose flights are delayed. It follows that the compensation payable to a passenger whose flight is delayed, who reaches his final destination three hours or more after the arrival time originally scheduled, may be reduced by 50%, in accordance with Article 7(2)(c) of Regulation No 261/2004, where the delay is – in the case of a flight not falling under points (a) or (b) of Article 7(2) – less than four hours.
Maybe there is another case that came later, but I haven't been able to find it.
Dec 12, 2018, 4:29 am
#1207
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
Programs: DL, AF and KL - UA - *G
Posts: 2,239
OK... so it is another case...
But the 50% rule was banned a long time ago!
Maybe when they fought about what timing counts.... not the block time but the time they open the doors? 🤔
When I have my next case I will ask my lawyer!
But the 50% rule was banned a long time ago!
Maybe when they fought about what timing counts.... not the block time but the time they open the doors? 🤔
When I have my next case I will ask my lawyer!
Dec 15, 2018, 12:39 am
#1209
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chicago
Programs: AAdvantage, MileagePlus
Posts: 9
Had a LHR-ORD flight 12/10/18 delayed by over 4 hours & arriving over 3 hours late. Thankfully the kiosk at LHR informed me about possible compensation. Got a 12 pound meal voucher & a piece of paper on EC261. Apply for the $150 ETC through their automated system on 12/12 (after kind of forgetting about EC261/assuming this was part of it). Remembered about EC261 afterwards reading more into it & had a sinking feeling that I may have forfeited it by taking the 150 ETC, but thankfully within a few hours of requesting compensation on 12/14 got a reply approving me for 600euro, 900 ETC , or 27500 miles. A 4 hour delays will have paid for lodging/airfare for my 5 day London trip if I take the ETC. Thanks EU.
Last edited by youth; Dec 15, 2018 at 1:32 am
Dec 15, 2018, 12:47 am
#1210
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Portland OR
Programs: United 1K 1MM, Marriott Bonvoy Platinum, Hilton HHonors Gold
Posts: 560
Dec 15, 2018, 10:51 am
#1211
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: a proud member of FT since 05-05-1998
Programs: DL, AF and KL - UA - *G
Posts: 2,239
The rule is gone or why do you think they so often pay 100% ?
Dec 21, 2018, 10:21 am
#1212
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1K 0.7MM (trying to get to 1MM!)
Posts: 1,272
I had a flight yesterday LHR-AAA-BBB (both AAA and BBB are in the US, and both flights were on UA). LHR-AAA was on time (slightly early arrival, in fact), but AAA-BBB ended up having a mechanical delay for a couple hours, and then UA switched planes and used an incoming plane from another city. In the end, AAA-BBB was delayed 5 hours 1 minute, causing me to arrive at BBB just under 5 hours later than I was scheduled to. Am I due anything from EU261 through United in addition to the compensation email from UnitedCares that I already received?
If so, how do I go about filing that information? I've only filed for EU261 one time, and it was about 2 years ago, so I don't remember what all I need to. I read through the Wiki, but I don't see any link with specific contact info. Do I just email CustomerCare, or fill out the online contact form, etc?
If so, how do I go about filing that information? I've only filed for EU261 one time, and it was about 2 years ago, so I don't remember what all I need to. I read through the Wiki, but I don't see any link with specific contact info. Do I just email CustomerCare, or fill out the online contact form, etc?
Please let me explain why compensation under EC261 is not applicable. Your flight 0949 from London to SFO was scheduled to depart at 0920 and arrive at 1230, and actually departed early at 0911 and arrived at 1155, which was 35 minutes early on arrival. In order for your flight to qualify for EC261 the flight would need to have been delayed departing London, for a controllable circumstance but less than 3 hours and the flight delay would have needed to cause you to miss your scheduled connection and arrive more than 3 hours late at your final destination.
Interestingly enough, however, the message I just received mentioned they would be sending an ETC for the delay, even though I already received one automatically before the delayed flight had touched down! I wonder if it will be more than the measly $75 they gave me before!
Dec 21, 2018, 10:30 am
#1213
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,691
Sue them in English court.
Dec 21, 2018, 10:32 am
#1214
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1K 0.7MM (trying to get to 1MM!)
Posts: 1,272
Dec 21, 2018, 10:46 am
#1215
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SAN
Programs: 1K (since 2008), *G (since 1990), 1MM
Posts: 3,217
So guess Brexit will mean no more claims for UA flights departing from LHR. Wonder:
1. what this will mean for ticket prices;
2. If flight delays will increase out of LHR
1. what this will mean for ticket prices;
2. If flight delays will increase out of LHR