UAs Official Response to HKG Ticketing/IT Error: Redeem @ Correct Amount or Redeposit
#4006
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
Programs: EK-IO, UA-1K2MM, ETIHAD-GOLD, SPG-PLAT LIFETIME, JUMEIRAH SERIUS GOLD
Posts: 5,220
Do you honestly believe that's how government works? Do the words "case law" mean anything to you?
A simple internet search brings up a good definition of "precedent" in a legal sense: Black's Law Dictionary defines "precedent" as a "rule of law established for the first time by a court for a particular type of case and thereafter referred to in deciding similar cases."
It works the same way within government agencies so that parties on all sides of a situation know what to expect from their actions, then be able to plan accordingly. Decisions by government agencies aren't made on the basis of "do we let X-number of people get away with this?" in one example, then rule differently in another based upon their whims. That would be preposterous.
A simple internet search brings up a good definition of "precedent" in a legal sense: Black's Law Dictionary defines "precedent" as a "rule of law established for the first time by a court for a particular type of case and thereafter referred to in deciding similar cases."
It works the same way within government agencies so that parties on all sides of a situation know what to expect from their actions, then be able to plan accordingly. Decisions by government agencies aren't made on the basis of "do we let X-number of people get away with this?" in one example, then rule differently in another based upon their whims. That would be preposterous.
Precedents are used all the time in courts to get one thing or the other admitted or argued. Precedents are also thrown out of court every day by different judges who don't believe they apply. Different judges look at precedents differently all the time. Nothing, including the law is black or white. A different DOT inspector could just have easily ruled against UA w this. That's how it goes.
#4007
Join Date: May 2006
Location: BOS and ...
Programs: UA 2MM, AA 600k, DL 500k, Hyatt GP 1M, HH Gold, Rad. Gold, CP Gold, Miracle Fruit-su Club
Posts: 9,950
A myopic viewpoint at best. What the DOT established in its ruling is that 1) it doesn't look at award charts when determining the validity of the "fare" involved in an award booking, 2) it only looks at what was displayed during the "booking process", and 3) the DOT will consider tickets purchased with miles the same as regular revenue fares when it comes to their jurisdiction over pricing issues. There's now no ambiguity where there was before.
Even though it's obviously easier for some bystanders to sit and point like they were on a school playground, a few important precedents were set in the DOT's answer to the complaints filed in this matter which shouldn't be overlooked.
Even though it's obviously easier for some bystanders to sit and point like they were on a school playground, a few important precedents were set in the DOT's answer to the complaints filed in this matter which shouldn't be overlooked.
I suggested before that United wanted this reviewed, and a ruling. There were other measures they could have taken, short of forcing the issue. This fairly new law has very little application, so far. For United, at worst, clarification. At best, any rollback. They got clarification, but not rollback. Quite the opposite.
Now that the ruling is in, it seems to me that the discussion here has narrowed again to two potential results: Fly us or deny us. Reminder: The DOT's authority was actually only to fine United or not. A fine, however token, would have been a result that the vast majority here would have thought acceptable, I think. OK, didn't happen. But the DOT did take a very conservative - limited - but substantive decision as described by AeroWesty @3992 above. His point #3 is actually substantial, IMO.
And those with sympathy for the devil who are now smug might think again. No? I suggest that the decision has reverberated through the legal and loyalty program halls of all airlines doing business in the US, especially AeroWesty's third point.
#4008
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
Any updates from people who filed suit? Or did people from the private Google forum get results and travel beyond the terms previously announced?
#4009
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: Gold, plat, diamond and more
Posts: 3,360
Not sure if they consider SCC as lawsuit.
Anyone succesful of settling is likely bound by NDA. Any lawsuit will likely still be going as its been a few months only. Most cases are eventually settled. Most people involved in a lawsuit are smart not to post updates on a public forum.
#4010
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: Marriott Plat
Posts: 944
If anyone's wondering, I filed a FOIA request with the DoT for documents regarding this issue. I just got them today and am happy to scan them if anyone's curious. There isn't very much that's terribly interesting, though there are about 15 pages of printouts from various blogs :-)
#4011
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,513
If anyone's wondering, I filed a FOIA request with the DoT for documents regarding this issue. I just got them today and am happy to scan them if anyone's curious. There isn't very much that's terribly interesting, though there are about 15 pages of printouts from various blogs :-)
#4012
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
If anyone's wondering, I filed a FOIA request with the DoT for documents regarding this issue. I just got them today and am happy to scan them if anyone's curious. There isn't very much that's terribly interesting, though there are about 15 pages of printouts from various blogs :-)
#4013
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: Gold, plat, diamond and more
Posts: 3,360
If anyone's wondering, I filed a FOIA request with the DoT for documents regarding this issue. I just got them today and am happy to scan them if anyone's curious. There isn't very much that's terribly interesting, though there are about 15 pages of printouts from various blogs :-)
#4014
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: Marriott Plat
Posts: 944
I've gotten a few PM requests so I will scan them-- won't be until Monday or so though. Any suggestions on a good site to upload it to?
#4015
In memoriam
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL (ORD), Phoenix AZ (PHX)
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM, Starwood Platinum, a nothing in several others
Posts: 5,176
If anyone's wondering, I filed a FOIA request with the DoT for documents regarding this issue. I just got them today and am happy to scan them if anyone's curious. There isn't very much that's terribly interesting, though there are about 15 pages of printouts from various blogs :-)
#4016
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 12 stops from ORD
Programs: UA, AA, DL
Posts: 992
I wouldn’t expect much substance. From what I’ve been told, there were a couple phone conferences between UA and DOT and that was that. No written response from UA. Investigation over. Case closed. Assuming that’s all true, I’m kinda surprised that DOT didn’t require a written explanation of what happened. The investigatory process must be pretty informal…at least for this type of complaint.
#4017
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
Mostly the latter. If I'm feeling feisty I might appeal since I specifically requested copies of both, and not much of the internal DOT stuff came through.
I've gotten a few PM requests so I will scan them-- won't be until Monday or so though. Any suggestions on a good site to upload it to?
I've gotten a few PM requests so I will scan them-- won't be until Monday or so though. Any suggestions on a good site to upload it to?
#4018
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: Marriott Plat
Posts: 944
I wouldn’t expect much substance. From what I’ve been told, there were a couple phone conferences between UA and DOT and that was that. No written response from UA. Investigation over. Case closed. Assuming that’s all true, I’m kinda surprised that DOT didn’t require a written explanation of what happened. The investigatory process must be pretty informal…at least for this type of complaint.
Thanks-- I will try to scan when I am in the office on Monday.
#4019
Moderator Hilton Honors, Travel News, West, The Suggestion Box, Smoking Lounge & DiningBuzz
Join Date: Jun 2000
Programs: Honors Diamond, Hertz Presidents Circle, National Exec Elite
Posts: 36,016
#4020
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: Marriott Plat
Posts: 944
Last edited by amejr999; Jan 7, 2013 at 12:05 pm Reason: New link