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UAs Official Response to HKG Ticketing/IT Error: Redeem @ Correct Amount or Redeposit

UAs Official Response to HKG Ticketing/IT Error: Redeem @ Correct Amount or Redeposit

Old Jul 25, 12, 12:08 pm
  #2821  
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Originally Posted by gfowler-ord-1k View Post
Not true. If there was enough miles in the account to purchase the award at the full award mile rate the total price shown on the booking page was 4 miles + the taxes, and the online and emailed receipts also state 4 miles + the taxes.
Aren't those who have enough miles got the correct miles deducted, despite the receipt and email show 4 miles?

This "mistake" unlike other mistake fares, only occurred under a very specific condition - that the account must not be 0 balance, nor have enough miles to pay for the correct price - would clearly show that this is a system glitch - not an intentional deceptive practice that the DoT regulations are to address and to protect consumers from such practice.

I am in the camp that Common Law doctrine would overcome the DoT regulation if the case go to court.
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:11 pm
  #2822  
 
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Originally Posted by balima View Post
Huh? Credit Cards were not declined. They were charged the correct amount of fees and taxes. This deal had nothing to do with Credit cards and the amount they were charged.
You missed the analogy.
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:13 pm
  #2823  
 
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Originally Posted by thyeri View Post
You could not book with a 0 balance. You needed at least 4 miles in the account to be able to ticket it.
See the second bullet item of UA Insider's post below. It states that "taxes and fees have been refunded". That implies that the tickets were issued The taxes and fees are not billed until the ticket is issued. If the ticket had not been issued there would be no need of a refund.

Note correction to the above in post 2850. Those who had 4 miles but less than in the award chart were ticketed but later cancelled and refunded when when UA issued a "post-purchase price increase". Those with 0-3 miles were not ticketed and the reservation was put on hold. These did not have to be refunded.

Originally Posted by UA Insider View Post
Hi Everyone, I want to provide you with a further update on our Hong Kong award programming error from this past weekend. Specifically here’s how we are proceeding with these reservations:
  • For those customers who had sufficient mileage in their account for the correct award amount, the correct amount of miles were deducted at the time of redemption. Any customers who do not intend to use the published number of miles for their ticket may cancel their reservation without paying a fee and we will refund all miles, taxes and fees.

  • For those customers who did not have sufficient mileage in their account for the correct award amount, the correct amount of miles could not be deducted at the time of redemption. These tickets have been canceled for non-payment and all taxes and fees have been refunded.

  • For those customers who have already begun travel, or are ticketed to begin travel on or before July 21, we will not cancel these tickets and will allow travel to be completed in full. This is intended as an accommodation to those customers whose travel is already underway or the departure date to begin travel is imminent.
We hope you’ll agree this was a unique circumstance. Unlike other widely reported “mistake fares,” the number of miles required for these awards – the correct purchase price – was clearly disclosed to customers throughout the MileagePlus award redemption process and is also available on our MileagePlus travel award chart.

We are in the process of communicating with affected customers at this time. Once again, we appreciate your understanding.

Shannon Kelly
Director, Customer Insights
United Airlines
Originally Posted by Happy View Post
Aren't those who have enough miles got the correct miles deducted, despite the receipt and email show 4 miles?....
That is correct. The web page and receipt indicated 4 miles but UA over-billed those accounts. In other words they "increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee." This is a violation of CFR 399.88. Prohibition on post-purchase price increase

Emphasis mine.

Last edited by gfowler-ord-1k; Jul 25, 12 at 1:38 pm Reason: merge
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:15 pm
  #2824  
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Originally Posted by Superguy View Post
I don't know about that. Many fares are published by the airlines, stating what a normal fare is for a given route at a period of time. These may change frequently, but they ARE published for public consumption.

If there's a mistake in the system and it sells a ticket for $1 that would normally go for $200, it doesn't mean that the carrier can go back and ask for the difference if it ticketed it at $1.
what if all along the price was being shown as $9,000 and taxes etc were $101 and when you got to the checkout page it shows $9,000 + $101 = $1 Its obvious there isnt any Special Fare and its a Billing Error

in the Mistake fares till now I believe that Fare all along was wrong and thats why the DoT says after the fact you cant go back and raise it once its been tkted. In the above ex the fare was always the correct amount till it added it all up but yet it still showed as a $9,000 Fare I wouldnt be surprised if the DoT allowed that $9,000 being billed as $1 to be CXed

with RGN (not in on it) the Fare stayed the same and never changed the Exchange rate is what changed causing the fare to workout in US$ to be nothing, so since they charged the amount they said they would DoT stepped in and made them honor the tkts It really wasnt a Mistake Fare as it was a mistake in currency exchange
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:16 pm
  #2825  
 
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Originally Posted by gfowler-ord-1k View Post
See the second bullet item of UA Insider's post below. It states that "taxes and fees have been refunded". That implies that the tickets were issued The taxes and fess are not billed until the ticket is issued. If the ticket had not been issued there would be no need of a refund.
If you had 0 mile in your account, you were allowed to have a PNR on hold, but were unable to ticket it. In order for the website to let you ticket it, you were required to have minimum balance of 4.

0 mile - no ticket.
> 4 miles: you can have your PNR confirmed and ticketed.
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:25 pm
  #2826  
 
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Originally Posted by Happy View Post
This "mistake" unlike other mistake fares, only occurred under a very specific condition - that the account must not be 0 balance, nor have enough miles to pay for the correct price - would clearly show that this is a system glitch - not an intentional deceptive practice that the DoT regulations are to address and to protect consumers from such practice.
Two points, firstly there were at least three glitches, a 'pricing glitch' where it showed 4 miles as the price in some or all of the screens (depending on how you booked) and a billing glitch that only checked for >4 miles in the account before confirming and ticketing and another glitch that caused unpredictable amounts (0, 4, 140000 miles) to be pulled from the account.

As for the intentional deceptive practice, DOT have published enforcement actions against providers even where an intent to deceive wasn't proven (e.g. TripAdvisor).

Also the US Court of Appeals has ruled on the validity of the rules and upheld them thus far (DOT Press Release).
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:27 pm
  #2827  
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Originally Posted by gfowler-ord-1k View Post
See the second bullet item of UA Insider's post below. It states that "taxes and fees have been refunded". That implies that the tickets were issued The taxes and fess are not billed until the ticket is issued. If the ticket had not been issued there would be no need of a refund.
there are very few law suits or trails where theres only 1 lawyer for only 1 of the sides and that lawyer can make the case for either side it all depends on whom is paying him/her. And once they agree to represent either side all that will be heard out of their mouths is what ever will help the person they are representing

= All sides can say and show why they are correct and the other side isnt, in the end it comes down to either the Judge or Jury deciding. OJ literally got away with Murder. Could be the DoT wont have anything to say on this at all, or that CO figured out even if they are forced to pay a Fine its still the better way for them to go
Is it a Billing error and no enforcement from DoT or a Mistake Fare and DoT will enforce it. Also dont forget every year 1000s of cases come before the Surpreme Court yet only a small handful get heard by the court, yet everyone feels they have a rock solid case and the SC will hear it and overturn what the other courts have said
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:28 pm
  #2828  
 
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Originally Posted by andyh64000 View Post
You missed the analogy.
Part of the amusement of this thread are all the analogies. No more analogies. Airline tickets are not like groceries, jewelry, steaks, bubblegum or left handed widgets. Airline tickets are a specific service that is regulated by the federal government - as are many things - yes I know.

but, really. No one is going to change anyone else's mind about this situation. i don't think anyone is going to have a light bulb moment and shout "Hallelujah, I see that I have been so mistaken. I should have never booked such a ticket. I shall never book such a ticket or buy any product or service that seems to good to be true."

As much as the righteous want the buyers to get over it,the naysayers need to get over it too. Let the situation play itself out. Personally, I think your previous post exposes your true concern.

I think filing a DoT complaint even crosses the line. They are basically hoping that DoT throws all common sense out the window and agrees that this is a passenger rights issue and that they are being wronged by not being allowed to fly international first class to asia for 4 cents. And if that happens guess who gets to pay higher fares to cover those tickets? And systemwides to asia are hard enough to use as it is...how do you think they would do for the next 12 months if all of these free tickets were honored?

You're worried about your own systemwides and how this mistake fare will affect you. Now that you can't get what you want, those that are in your way need to be kicked off the plane.
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:33 pm
  #2829  
 
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Originally Posted by balima:19000354
Originally Posted by andyh64000 View Post
You missed the analogy.


I think filing a DoT complaint even crosses the line. They are basically hoping that DoT throws all common sense out the window and agrees that this is a passenger rights issue and that they are being wronged by not being allowed to fly international first class to asia for 4 cents. And if that happens guess who gets to pay higher fares to cover those tickets? And systemwides to asia are hard enough to use as it is...how do you think they would do for the next 12 months if all of these free tickets were honored?

You're worried about your own systemwides and how this mistake fare will affect you. Now that you can't get what you want, those that are in your way need to be kicked off the plane.
You are exactly right...I don't want to pay for a bunch of people scamming free tickets from united...why should I? I am also against insurance fraud and shoplifting.
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:34 pm
  #2830  
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Originally Posted by janetdoe View Post

So why on earth would we think DOT would balk on this one?
Maybe you should send them the link to this thread.

dh
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:35 pm
  #2831  
 
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Originally Posted by thyeri View Post
If you had 0 mile in your account, you were allowed to have a PNR on hold, but were unable to ticket it. In order for the website to let you ticket it, you were required to have minimum balance of 4.

0 mile - no ticket.
> 4 miles: you can have your PNR confirmed and ticketed.
You may be correct, I was going by UA Insider's post which implied that it was ticketed since they were issuing refunds. Maybe the refund was $0
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:37 pm
  #2832  
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Originally Posted by craz View Post
what if all along the price was being shown as $9,000 and taxes etc were $101 and when you got to the checkout page it shows $9,000 + $101 = $1 Its obvious there isnt any Special Fare and its a Billing Error

in the Mistake fares till now I believe that Fare all along was wrong and thats why the DoT says after the fact you cant go back and raise it once its been tkted. In the above ex the fare was always the correct amount till it added it all up but yet it still showed as a $9,000 Fare I wouldnt be surprised if the DoT allowed that $9,000 being billed as $1 to be CXed

with RGN (not in on it) the Fare stayed the same and never changed the Exchange rate is what changed causing the fare to workout in US$ to be nothing, so since they charged the amount they said they would DoT stepped in and made them honor the tkts It really wasnt a Mistake Fare as it was a mistake in currency exchange
I've had it happen to me. It was awhile ago, back in 2005 on a DL flight for DCA-PWM. Start the booking and it showed the regular price of $170 and change. However, once you selected the flights and it priced the ticket, it repriced out to $0. All that was charged were taxes and Travelocity ticket fee at the time. I ended up getting 2 tickets for $57 all in. DL ticketed it and honored the tickets. Back then, we didn't have these rules and DL could have easily canned the ticket.

Like the DL ticket, UA's system pretty much did the same thing, just with miles and taxes instead of all money. It's a mistake, and not a billing error.

Originally Posted by andyh64000 View Post
You are exactly right...I don't want to pay for a bunch of people scamming free tickets from united...why should I? I am also against insurance fraud and shoplifting.
Doesn't bother me, I drastically limited my flying on UA for other reasons. I also didn't get in on this deal.

That said, these aren't even in the realm of insurance fraud and shoplifting. UA sold something and it was bought. Fraud indicates getting something by deception, which didn't happen. Shoplifting implies the seller got nothing in return. UA did. One can argue or not whether it was just compensation or not, or whether UA should have to eat it or not because they were dumb enough to sell it for that, but you can't argue that something was stolen.

Last edited by iluv2fly; Jul 25, 12 at 1:19 pm Reason: merge
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:42 pm
  #2833  
 
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Originally Posted by gfowler-ord-1k View Post
You may be correct, I was going by UA Insider's post which implied that it was ticketed since they were issuing refunds. Maybe the refund was $0
What they mean here: for people who ticketed PNRs and had a balance lower than the amount of miles required as stated on the award chart, 120K/160K/..., they will cancel tickets and refund airport taxes and fees.

For those customers who did not have sufficient mileage in their account for the correct award amount, the correct amount of miles could not be deducted at the time of redemption. These tickets have been canceled for non-payment and all taxes and fees have been refunded.
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:48 pm
  #2834  
 
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Originally Posted by Superguy View Post

That said, these aren't even in the realm of insurance fraud and shoplifting. UA sold something and it was bought. Fraud indicates getting something by deception, which didn't happen. Shoplifting implies the seller got nothing in return. UA did. One can argue or not whether it was just compensation or not, or whether UA should have to eat it or not because they were dumb enough to sell it for that, but you can't argue that something was stolen.
Sorry...didn't mean to imply that it was just meant to point out that those costs are recovered in the same way as this will.
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Old Jul 25, 12, 12:49 pm
  #2835  
 
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Originally Posted by thyeri View Post
What they mean here: for people who ticketed PNRs and had a balance lower than the amount of miles required as stated on the award chart, 120K/160K/..., they will cancel tickets and refund airport taxes and fees.
Gotcha, my bad and I put a note in my previous post. So those who had 4 miles but less than the award chart had their tickets canceled and refunded when UA issued a "post-purchase price increase". I had to throw that in

Last edited by gfowler-ord-1k; Jul 25, 12 at 1:28 pm
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