UA mistake award redemption rates for China travel [UA says will void tickets]
#631
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago
Programs: UA GS 1MM, CM PP
Posts: 689
Traveling HKG-ORD, legitimately, in three hours. Will report any observations, though I doubt I'll see anything of note. C and F cabins are not completely full. C is actually relatively light compared to my historical observations. Award availability had been very open the three days prior, btw, so I gather not many last minute bookings on this flight.
#632
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 426
2000 even 10000 is a too conservative estimation because this was just a rough number you can get in English world(Say,like FT). Other non-english speakers could hardly see and do your survey. This loophole was discovered and posted on a non-english forum at least 4 hours before first posted in FT. Use your imagimation...
#633
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SJU
Programs: Amex FHR elite travel agent, Ritz Stars, Hyatt Prive, Four Seasons Preferred Partner and others
Posts: 1,520
Those who say they are definitely going to cancel all the tickets are ridiculous. At the end of the day it will be a numbers game with some sort of formula like this (and only UA will know the definitive number):
The way they will decide is a formula similar to this
1. Actual cost of accommodating each passenger (food/drink, baggage, fuel etc) + estimate of those who got in on the deal who would have purchased a ticket on United (either with full miles or paid in any class) + lost revenue from displacing paid customers on flights that have historically been fully booked + cost to partner carriers = cost of honoring mistake
2. then they will calculate cost of not honoring the deal: legal costs + possible DOT fines/increased scrutiny and regulation + bad PR + customer irritation = cost of not honoring mistake
if 1 is much greater than 2 then they will cancel the trips. My guess is the cost is closer to even and they will honor most trips or perhaps cancel trips on partner carriers only
The way they will decide is a formula similar to this
1. Actual cost of accommodating each passenger (food/drink, baggage, fuel etc) + estimate of those who got in on the deal who would have purchased a ticket on United (either with full miles or paid in any class) + lost revenue from displacing paid customers on flights that have historically been fully booked + cost to partner carriers = cost of honoring mistake
2. then they will calculate cost of not honoring the deal: legal costs + possible DOT fines/increased scrutiny and regulation + bad PR + customer irritation = cost of not honoring mistake
if 1 is much greater than 2 then they will cancel the trips. My guess is the cost is closer to even and they will honor most trips or perhaps cancel trips on partner carriers only
#637
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Programs: Hilton G/SPG G/IHG RA/Accor P/Aeroplan Elite/CZ S
Posts: 73
#639
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,564
I must say I am surprised they have not cancelled them all yet.
#640
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SIN
Programs: UA Platinum, DL Platinum, AFKL Gold, Qatar Gold
Posts: 895
I'm in the game too!
Just received ticket numbers for my two bookings that were on hold since yesterday. ^
Special thanks to a :-: FT member :-: here who helped me with a Chase Ultimate Reward transfer... ^^
Just received ticket numbers for my two bookings that were on hold since yesterday. ^
Special thanks to a :-: FT member :-: here who helped me with a Chase Ultimate Reward transfer... ^^
#641
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC, US
Posts: 74
For those into the real legal aspects of this, there is a link to a DOT FAQ right here: http://airconsumer.dot.gov/rules/EAP...-2012final.pdf
In addition to comments on mistake rule (section 388.88) at the end of the document which were discussed earlier, see FAQ on price advertising/solicitation rule (section 399.84) beginning on page 22 which says:
(a) The Department considers any advertising or solicitation by a direct air carrier [or seller of air transportation] that states a price for such air transportation, tour, or tour component to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. 41712, unless the price stated is the entire price to be paid by the customer to the carrier, or agent, for such air transportation, tour, or tour component.
Then the FAQ (again, written by the DOT) has this question:
5. How can a carrier display frequent-flyer award ticket costs when the consumer must “pay” in miles and separately pay for taxes and fees?
In the case of an award ticket, the full fare would be the total amount of miles a consumer needs to redeem an award ticket plus any monetary amount the consumer must pay in order to redeem the award ticket. Therefore, the mileage amount and the cash amount must be in equal prominence in the display, as they are both components of the full fare. The monetary amount must include any mandatory charge that the carrier imposes in order to redeem the award amount, including service/processing charges, taxes, and fees.
It would be a per se violation of 399.84 to even list a price on the screen and not honor it. Does anyone really think the DOT is going to set a precedent that allows a carrier to list two separate prices for the exact same flight on one screen and charge the HIGHER of the two to the consumer when they process the transaction?
More importantly, this makes it CLEAR that all of these rules apply to award tickets. There is no way the DOT considers 399.84 (price advertising/solicitation) applicable to award fares and 399.88 (mistake rule) four paragraphs down and in the same section to be exempt from award fares. Absolutely no way.
The question UA has now is whether it's cheaper to violate the law or honor the tickets. But any violation would subject them to civil claims and an easy class action in addition to the government penalties. Just can't see it happening.
In addition to comments on mistake rule (section 388.88) at the end of the document which were discussed earlier, see FAQ on price advertising/solicitation rule (section 399.84) beginning on page 22 which says:
(a) The Department considers any advertising or solicitation by a direct air carrier [or seller of air transportation] that states a price for such air transportation, tour, or tour component to be an unfair and deceptive practice in violation of 49 U.S.C. 41712, unless the price stated is the entire price to be paid by the customer to the carrier, or agent, for such air transportation, tour, or tour component.
Then the FAQ (again, written by the DOT) has this question:
5. How can a carrier display frequent-flyer award ticket costs when the consumer must “pay” in miles and separately pay for taxes and fees?
In the case of an award ticket, the full fare would be the total amount of miles a consumer needs to redeem an award ticket plus any monetary amount the consumer must pay in order to redeem the award ticket. Therefore, the mileage amount and the cash amount must be in equal prominence in the display, as they are both components of the full fare. The monetary amount must include any mandatory charge that the carrier imposes in order to redeem the award amount, including service/processing charges, taxes, and fees.
It would be a per se violation of 399.84 to even list a price on the screen and not honor it. Does anyone really think the DOT is going to set a precedent that allows a carrier to list two separate prices for the exact same flight on one screen and charge the HIGHER of the two to the consumer when they process the transaction?
More importantly, this makes it CLEAR that all of these rules apply to award tickets. There is no way the DOT considers 399.84 (price advertising/solicitation) applicable to award fares and 399.88 (mistake rule) four paragraphs down and in the same section to be exempt from award fares. Absolutely no way.
The question UA has now is whether it's cheaper to violate the law or honor the tickets. But any violation would subject them to civil claims and an easy class action in addition to the government penalties. Just can't see it happening.
Last edited by davidbridgman; Jul 16, 2012 at 6:53 pm
#643
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 721
Good luck to you, hope you get to travel on your reservation.
#644
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 75
Makes sense, but wouldn't cancelling partner carrier flights create another set of problems? Some people get their trip or others don't?