Want to do a LONG SELL, but no AGENT can help
Jun 20, 2012, 5:42 pm
#31
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: GRR, USA
Posts: 3,298
Thanks to you two and the others who've shed light on this phenomenon, but are we actually talking about two different things here? LF seems to be talking about a situation where the award flight is available but for whatever reason not appearing on a given site. It seems that SEA1K is talking about a situation where the award does appear as available on a site, but that Starnet blocking means/meant that UA would block an MP member from redeeming miles for it. So, if I understand this correctly, the OP and LH are just talking about an itinerary that UA will allow mileage redemption for, but that it will only appear if the CSR is specifically asked to search for the date and flights involved.
Do I have that right?
Regardless...LF, how have you been able to know to ask for )and somtimes get) such specific award itineraries, though? Do you simply go fishing, or is the LH or some other site helpful in indicating award availability even it can't be found at UA, NH, EF, whatever?
Do I have that right?
Regardless...LF, how have you been able to know to ask for )and somtimes get) such specific award itineraries, though? Do you simply go fishing, or is the LH or some other site helpful in indicating award availability even it can't be found at UA, NH, EF, whatever?
60-70%? Forgive me for being dubious.
Do you see the NH space first, then call UA to manually book it if it doesn't show up on .bomb, or do you just request the space out of the blue, or perhaps do you see what M&M has made available to their own members, then try to get on those flights? (which would truly be an amazing, though time-intensive loophole if that worked).
You see the phantom O space all the time on .bomb, I assume. Have you ever checked to see if this matches with M&M member space?
Do you see the NH space first, then call UA to manually book it if it doesn't show up on .bomb, or do you just request the space out of the blue, or perhaps do you see what M&M has made available to their own members, then try to get on those flights? (which would truly be an amazing, though time-intensive loophole if that worked).
You see the phantom O space all the time on .bomb, I assume. Have you ever checked to see if this matches with M&M member space?
I've actually had this done before a couple of times. It's a forced request but not how one would think. Let's say LH123 shows F9 but 0 award seats.
I call agent, agent tells me there's no award seats in F. I ask her if she could put in a request, or "push" the request for an F award. She sends a request to LH and within 3-5 min she gets back a yes or no.
I had it done several times with LH, SQ and recently when I wanted to use miles on Air China for a C Class seat PEK-ULN. She sent the request and it came back open...on both legs, which showed closed on computer! She didn't open a seat, she just sent a request to the airline and the airline either approved it or updated it.
Now whether the individual airlines look at the inventory and decides to open a seat or it just needed to be updated, I don't know. I assumed the former. That someone received the request at say, LH, looked at the flight and decided to open a seat and approve the request.
Am I correct, Monsieur LufthansaFlyer?
UG
I call agent, agent tells me there's no award seats in F. I ask her if she could put in a request, or "push" the request for an F award. She sends a request to LH and within 3-5 min she gets back a yes or no.
I had it done several times with LH, SQ and recently when I wanted to use miles on Air China for a C Class seat PEK-ULN. She sent the request and it came back open...on both legs, which showed closed on computer! She didn't open a seat, she just sent a request to the airline and the airline either approved it or updated it.
Now whether the individual airlines look at the inventory and decides to open a seat or it just needed to be updated, I don't know. I assumed the former. That someone received the request at say, LH, looked at the flight and decided to open a seat and approve the request.
Am I correct, Monsieur LufthansaFlyer?
UG
Glad that you've had success and confirm that its not a snake oil gimmick that we're discussing!
Last edited by iluv2fly; Jun 20, 2012 at 6:38 pm Reason: merge
Jun 20, 2012, 6:07 pm
#32
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC: UA 1K, DL Platinum, AAirpass, Avis PC
Posts: 4,599
Just tried it for a TG segment. 1st agent was legacy CO and had no idea.
Next agent was legacy UA. She referred to it as 'sending them a message' which they have up to 24 hours to respond. In my case they responded almost instantly, though the answer she got was 'no.'
I know on Delta for example this method is the only way to book rewards with Malaysia airlines -they send the message request before confirming it.
Next agent was legacy UA. She referred to it as 'sending them a message' which they have up to 24 hours to respond. In my case they responded almost instantly, though the answer she got was 'no.'
I know on Delta for example this method is the only way to book rewards with Malaysia airlines -they send the message request before confirming it.
Jun 21, 2012, 1:14 am
#33
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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Posts: 1,573
I'm speaking SABRE ... and from 20 years ago ... but the process/communication is basically the same on all legacy RES systems ....
And I hate to bust everyone's chops here, but APOLLO is just as ancient as SHARES ... what Newnited is lacking is a GUI interface to build the legacy entries for the agents.
"HK" is the reply, not the request.
As fastair mentioned, the request you enter would end with "NN1" (need one seat)
Once you "end transaction", the request is sent. A segment is built in the PNR, but its status will have changed from NN1 to PN1 (from "needing" to "pending" one seat).
The other airline may respond practically realtime, or it may take a few hours to a day.
Once the response is received, the PN status either becomes UC (unable to confirm) or HK (hold confirmed). There are many other segment status codes, but those are the most common.
I do think you can enter the segment as HK. But that's if you talked to the other airline's agents directly and know for a fact that they confirmed the seats. In that case, you're simply adding the segment to the PNR without requesting or selling anything. Surely this has changed with electronic ticketing ... I'd think you'd need something more "hard core" to generate a ticket with one of the other airline's flights as HK
:-:------:-:
The term I've always heard for the entry is "long sell"
But to be clear, it isn't a (forced) "sell" entry, it is simply a request to sell. If the requested inventory isn't available, the reply will be UC.
I'd imagine some airlines restrict award availability from outside requests ... in much the same way that "advance mode" on the web doesn't always display every fare bucket.
On the legacy airline mainframes the "zero" key is the "segment" key ... like using a PF Key .
So to long sell (request) 2 seats from the "M" fare bucket on AA flight 123, June 30th, PHX to DFW .......
0AA123M30JUNPHXDFWNN2
Today, most (non CO ??) Agents are probably trained to use a GUI. They may not even know about "native".
Those using a "native" connection to the mainframe are probably more used to the "short sell" entry from an "availability" display.
The "one" key is the "PF Key" for flight searches (availability) so ....
130JUNPHXDFW ... or to filter to say 5pm departures... 130JUNPHXDFW5P
On the list of flights displayed, if the flight on line 3 is the one you want (still 2 M class seats)...
02M3
Thus the names "long sell" and "short sell" refer to the native command line's input format.
:-:------:-:
In the context of the OP ...
I guess a long sell helps if your airline uses an application (ie: Star Net) to restrict an availability display. Thus no "short sell" style path from that availability display.
If the Agent has access to native, then they could send the request via "long sell". But unless you already know that inventory is open, the long sell could be a waste of time waiting for the reply, only to get UC.
And if an airline uses availability blocking, then it's probably a policy violation to bypass it via long sell I'm not supporting the practice, just saying...
And I hate to bust everyone's chops here, but APOLLO is just as ancient as SHARES ... what Newnited is lacking is a GUI interface to build the legacy entries for the agents.
"HK" is the reply, not the request.
As fastair mentioned, the request you enter would end with "NN1" (need one seat)
Once you "end transaction", the request is sent. A segment is built in the PNR, but its status will have changed from NN1 to PN1 (from "needing" to "pending" one seat).
The other airline may respond practically realtime, or it may take a few hours to a day.
Once the response is received, the PN status either becomes UC (unable to confirm) or HK (hold confirmed). There are many other segment status codes, but those are the most common.
I do think you can enter the segment as HK. But that's if you talked to the other airline's agents directly and know for a fact that they confirmed the seats. In that case, you're simply adding the segment to the PNR without requesting or selling anything. Surely this has changed with electronic ticketing ... I'd think you'd need something more "hard core" to generate a ticket with one of the other airline's flights as HK
:-:------:-:
The term I've always heard for the entry is "long sell"
But to be clear, it isn't a (forced) "sell" entry, it is simply a request to sell. If the requested inventory isn't available, the reply will be UC.
I'd imagine some airlines restrict award availability from outside requests ... in much the same way that "advance mode" on the web doesn't always display every fare bucket.
On the legacy airline mainframes the "zero" key is the "segment" key ... like using a PF Key .
So to long sell (request) 2 seats from the "M" fare bucket on AA flight 123, June 30th, PHX to DFW .......
0AA123M30JUNPHXDFWNN2
Today, most (non CO ??) Agents are probably trained to use a GUI. They may not even know about "native".
Those using a "native" connection to the mainframe are probably more used to the "short sell" entry from an "availability" display.
The "one" key is the "PF Key" for flight searches (availability) so ....
130JUNPHXDFW ... or to filter to say 5pm departures... 130JUNPHXDFW5P
On the list of flights displayed, if the flight on line 3 is the one you want (still 2 M class seats)...
02M3
Thus the names "long sell" and "short sell" refer to the native command line's input format.
:-:------:-:
In the context of the OP ...
I guess a long sell helps if your airline uses an application (ie: Star Net) to restrict an availability display. Thus no "short sell" style path from that availability display.
If the Agent has access to native, then they could send the request via "long sell". But unless you already know that inventory is open, the long sell could be a waste of time waiting for the reply, only to get UC.
And if an airline uses availability blocking, then it's probably a policy violation to bypass it via long sell I'm not supporting the practice, just saying...
Jun 21, 2012, 10:46 am
#35
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 257
I don't think you can actually do that.
Even though long sale is easy to do, it is simply not allowed by most of the companies in the world if a direct reservation can be made through the electronic system( definitely between LH and UA in this case). Only in the case that open seats cannot be confirmed electronically can the agent or the website do a LONG SALE (like KA flights and CA flights pre-merger in the CO system)
LONG SALE is very useful when making award reservation if an open seat does exist, but somehow the system can't see it. First you need to make sure there is award seats available, you can confirm this through kvs. Then you simply need to find an agent that is nice enough to help you with this because this is simply not allowed by company rules( as for delta the rule being a LONG SALE can only be made when partner seats are open, but seats cannot be confirmed through the system, and I assume UA has similar rules). So you can call, and ask the agent politely to do a LONG SALE for you, and if he doesnt, simply hang up and try again. This is purely luck.
I have experienced this with DL as their system cannot see any award availability on CZ tpac flight, while my friend working in CZ told me award seats were open. I called DL and tried 6 times in a row, I told the agent Delta's system couldnt see any open seat while in fact CZ had seats open, and after 6 tries, I had one agent willing to do a LONG SALE.
Even though long sale is easy to do, it is simply not allowed by most of the companies in the world if a direct reservation can be made through the electronic system( definitely between LH and UA in this case). Only in the case that open seats cannot be confirmed electronically can the agent or the website do a LONG SALE (like KA flights and CA flights pre-merger in the CO system)
LONG SALE is very useful when making award reservation if an open seat does exist, but somehow the system can't see it. First you need to make sure there is award seats available, you can confirm this through kvs. Then you simply need to find an agent that is nice enough to help you with this because this is simply not allowed by company rules( as for delta the rule being a LONG SALE can only be made when partner seats are open, but seats cannot be confirmed through the system, and I assume UA has similar rules). So you can call, and ask the agent politely to do a LONG SALE for you, and if he doesnt, simply hang up and try again. This is purely luck.
I have experienced this with DL as their system cannot see any award availability on CZ tpac flight, while my friend working in CZ told me award seats were open. I called DL and tried 6 times in a row, I told the agent Delta's system couldnt see any open seat while in fact CZ had seats open, and after 6 tries, I had one agent willing to do a LONG SALE.
Last edited by ben237829624; Jun 21, 2012 at 11:04 am
Jun 21, 2012, 10:58 am
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 12,949
What is the date in question?
Jun 21, 2012, 4:36 pm
#37
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Posts: 12,949
As there is currently no partner F Award Availability on the subject flight/date, there is no need to request a Long-Sell.
There is 1 F Seat that is only available to M&M own members:
[KVS Availability Tool 7.0.2/Diamond - SNT: Awards/StarAlliance/JP-ANA-SP1]
[KVS Availability Tool 7.0.2/Diamond - Amadeus: Awards/M&M]
There is 1 F Seat that is only available to M&M own members:
[KVS Availability Tool 7.0.2/Diamond - SNT: Awards/StarAlliance/JP-ANA-SP1]
Code:
LAX Los Angeles Intl CA US [KLAX]
MUC Munich Franz Josef Strauss DE [EDDM]
*** ** *** **** | 1 Seat
Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- -------------
LH 453 LAX 21:10 MUC 17:30 +1 346 0 FS- CS- YS-
UA 902 LAX 08:00 MUC 07:50 +1 777 1+ FS- CS- YS-
US 708 LAX 08:30 MUC 08:50 +1 CHG 1+ FS/ CS- YS-
US 700 LAX 06:30 FRA 06:15 +1 CHG 1+ FS/ CS- YS-
-> LH 100 FRA 07:30 +1 MUC 08:25 +1 319 0 FS/ CS- YS-
LH 457 LAX 14:55 FRA 10:40 +1 744 0 FS- CS- YS-
-> LH 108 FRA 12:10 +1 MUC 13:05 +1 321 0 FS/ CS- YS-
LH 457 LAX 14:55 FRA 10:40 +1 744 0 FS- CS- YS-
-> LH 110 FRA 13:35 +1 MUC 14:30 +1 320 0 FS/ CS- YS-
LH 451 LAX 19:00 FRA 14:45 +1 744 0 FS- CS- YS-
-> LH 114 FRA 16:15 +1 MUC 17:10 +1 320 0 FS/ CS- YS-
LH 451 LAX 19:00 FRA 14:45 +1 744 0 FS- CS- YS-
-> LH 116 FRA 17:10 +1 MUC 18:05 +1 321 0 FS/ CS- YS-
NZ 2 LAX 16:45 LHR 11:15 +1 773 0 FS/ CS- YS-
-> LH 2475 LHR 13:15 +1 MUC 16:05 +1 319 0 FS/ CS+ YS+
UA 934 LAX 17:55 LHR 12:15 +1 777 0 FS- CS- YS-
-> LH 2477 LHR 15:25 +1 MUC 18:15 +1 320 0 FS/ CS+ YS+
Code:
LAX Los Angeles Intl CA US [KLAX]
MUC Munich Franz Josef Strauss DE [EDDM]
*** ** *** **** | ** *** **** | 1 Seat
Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ------------
LH 453 LAX 21:10 MUC 17:30 +1 346 FS+
Jun 21, 2012, 5:02 pm
#38
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Jun 21, 2012, 5:12 pm
#39
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: LAX
Programs: UA Silver, AA, WN, DL
Posts: 4,091
The "long sell" process is quite common; for example, when using miles on a partner airline (CI) to redeem DL award seat, the "long sell" is made with the CI reservation agent making a request. I've had the CI agent tell me it can take anywhere between a few minutes to a day.
Very painstaking process to redeem award tickets on airlines that do not have a transparent process.
Very painstaking process to redeem award tickets on airlines that do not have a transparent process.
Jun 21, 2012, 6:13 pm
#40
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
HNL or DTW can do it...
and there are three circimstances where I know from experience it will happen:
(1) award space is available that they can see but they need to request it. This happens as other have said with TG (unless its linked to a UA flight, such as a second leg), and ANA. Then send a RQ over, and wait for a response. Other airlines may be similar.
(2) award space does not show on UA, but it shows on ANA starnet, or another source. Its hit or miss, but I've never had a problem getting an agent to do it, but then I'm GS.
It works, although I have had to call back before to get it done.
(3) UA shows award space, but don't have the seat numbers I want. I usually travel with 4 on rewards (two kids, wife, me) and I've asked nicely before "can you see if they will open up another seat?" If its UA they send a RQ to Inventory Management, if its another airline, they send over a RQ.
I've never tried to do this blind before (ie. with no indication of availability) so find these descriptions interesting. I also note most of the descriptions are with trans-atl flights on LH. UA and LH share an arrangement where they split the profit/revenue on those routes, so it may be different how that operates.
Note that CI/DL systems are different, so how they work does not apply to how *A carriers work.
(1) award space is available that they can see but they need to request it. This happens as other have said with TG (unless its linked to a UA flight, such as a second leg), and ANA. Then send a RQ over, and wait for a response. Other airlines may be similar.
(2) award space does not show on UA, but it shows on ANA starnet, or another source. Its hit or miss, but I've never had a problem getting an agent to do it, but then I'm GS.
It works, although I have had to call back before to get it done.(3) UA shows award space, but don't have the seat numbers I want. I usually travel with 4 on rewards (two kids, wife, me) and I've asked nicely before "can you see if they will open up another seat?" If its UA they send a RQ to Inventory Management, if its another airline, they send over a RQ.
I've never tried to do this blind before (ie. with no indication of availability) so find these descriptions interesting. I also note most of the descriptions are with trans-atl flights on LH. UA and LH share an arrangement where they split the profit/revenue on those routes, so it may be different how that operates.
Note that CI/DL systems are different, so how they work does not apply to how *A carriers work.
Jun 21, 2012, 6:40 pm
#41
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Posts: 3,459
The problem is that the "phantom availability" under discussion is none of these things. It's united.com showing a LH award seat (usually F) available, but no UA agent can see it. I'm guessing that prior posters who say they got a UA agent to do a "long sell" in cases like this were very lucky: why would an agent do it if his system doesn't show the seat as available? And what are the magic words to convince him to try?
Jun 21, 2012, 8:55 pm
#42
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
The problem is that the "phantom availability" under discussion is none of these things. It's united.com showing a LH award seat (usually F) available, but no UA agent can see it. I'm guessing that prior posters who say they got a UA agent to do a "long sell" in cases like this were very lucky: why would an agent do it if his system doesn't show the seat as available? And what are the magic words to convince him to try?
So he was not reporting a phantom availability, its a different issue.
That said, and as I noted, the vast bulk of the experiences posted here of "success" were with LH, and there may be some different issues due to the profit sharing agreement between LH and UA.
personally, I've had seats "found" in the three situations I discuss on TG, OZ, and ANA, plus UA opening up space (which is a different issue), but no experience with LH.
Jun 21, 2012, 10:18 pm
#43
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 110
Hi,
Long sell is usually done when availability is there, however the system is unable to pull that. It is possible on GDS such as Amadeus or Sabre, however there is no LONG SELL option on Apollo or Shares.
The NN1 is usually done on Airlines such as SQ or EK ( previous APOLLO ) when the system has no way to detect whether there is award availability or not. The UA/CO agent would get the response at the same time. If that's UC, they would try a different date or flights. If that's HK, they have to wait for 24 hours for the final confirmation to make sure SQ or EK wouldn't cancel the space.
Regarding HNL agents to follow that, i guess would be against their policy, as it would a big loophole for star net blocking. UA system does see real time inventory from LH ( apart when it's startnet blocking ).This option could work when you know LH does have availability, however United have BLOCKED that inventory on their system. An agent could sell it as NN1 in previous Apollo and that would break Starnet blocking.
Though not sure, how it is done in Shares, but i am sure this is against their policies......
Thanks and Regards
taran_2005
Long sell is usually done when availability is there, however the system is unable to pull that. It is possible on GDS such as Amadeus or Sabre, however there is no LONG SELL option on Apollo or Shares.
The NN1 is usually done on Airlines such as SQ or EK ( previous APOLLO ) when the system has no way to detect whether there is award availability or not. The UA/CO agent would get the response at the same time. If that's UC, they would try a different date or flights. If that's HK, they have to wait for 24 hours for the final confirmation to make sure SQ or EK wouldn't cancel the space.
Regarding HNL agents to follow that, i guess would be against their policy, as it would a big loophole for star net blocking. UA system does see real time inventory from LH ( apart when it's startnet blocking ).This option could work when you know LH does have availability, however United have BLOCKED that inventory on their system. An agent could sell it as NN1 in previous Apollo and that would break Starnet blocking.
Though not sure, how it is done in Shares, but i am sure this is against their policies......
Thanks and Regards
taran_2005
Jun 21, 2012, 11:36 pm
#44
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 101
Want to do a LONG SELL, but no AGENT can help
Just an FYI and to clarify...
I should have said that ANA showed no F availability, not that O/0. In fact, Miles and More had a seat, at one point two seats, but is now 1, which KVA confirmed.
I'm not interested in biz, so never looked.
RCK
I should have said that ANA showed no F availability, not that O/0. In fact, Miles and More had a seat, at one point two seats, but is now 1, which KVA confirmed.
I'm not interested in biz, so never looked.
RCK
Jun 22, 2012, 12:10 am
#45
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
I might add that while the thread you started is very very interesting, to not even look at Biz seats, when you are looking for a specific date 10 days out, is rather cheeky
and not likely to get you a reward seat, period. Even as a GS, its hunt and pick, and I would not presume (even on an airline like AA where redemption is far easier) to be able to get exactly what I wanted close in, and certainly not for an agent to break policy...