United CFO Rainey Implies Certain Elites were "Over Entitled".
May 21, 2012, 4:17 pm
#767
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
Programs: EK-IO, UA-1K2MM, ETIHAD-GOLD, SPG-PLAT LIFETIME, JUMEIRAH SERIUS GOLD
Posts: 5,220
(I for one have NEVER got a single dollar from UA or even a discounted ticket but I have NO problem asking for and getting miles added to my account if I'm sitting in C on a 9 hour flight with no audio, video or a seat that won't work)
May 21, 2012, 4:21 pm
#768
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Always on the move
Programs: Something lifetime here and there
Posts: 1,867
Hi Everyone, we see there’s a lot of interest in our recent presentation at Bank of America. To clarify, the message that we’re investing in our Premier program and ensuring greater access to elite benefits at higher elite tiers is not a new one. An example of this is when our Premier tiers get access to Economy Plus seating. This change has materialized into a meaningfully better experience for our Gold members and above. In fact, in markets that have the highest proportion of Premier flyers, a higher percentage of Premier Platinum and Premier Gold members are getting access to Economy Plus (comparing February 2012 to April 2012, and comparing April 2011 to April 2012), while the percentage of Premier Silver members sitting in Economy Plus hasn’t decreased meaningfully. Some of those Premier Silver members may be choosing to purchase Economy Plus seating, but, in general, Economy Plus seating remains available at time of check-in.
While John was not referring to upgrades, we know they remain a hot topic, especially with respect to selling upgrades. As discussed in other threads, our continued goal is to simply sell our First Class seats as close to their intended retail price as possible. The Y/B/M instant upgrade fares that we offer our Premier members, for example, are only a modest discount from our retail First Class fares, and the buy-ups we offer based on these fares are simply an extension of this. In the coming year, we will be adding more transparency to the upgrade process, and will also be making important improvements to the upgrade system itself. Please be assured, whether your concern is that we reward loyalty solely or that we also offer a higher level of benefits to those loyal members who also spend more, we are listening.
Thanks as always for allowing us the clarify these points.
Shannon Kelly
Director, Customer Insights
United Airlines
While John was not referring to upgrades, we know they remain a hot topic, especially with respect to selling upgrades. As discussed in other threads, our continued goal is to simply sell our First Class seats as close to their intended retail price as possible. The Y/B/M instant upgrade fares that we offer our Premier members, for example, are only a modest discount from our retail First Class fares, and the buy-ups we offer based on these fares are simply an extension of this. In the coming year, we will be adding more transparency to the upgrade process, and will also be making important improvements to the upgrade system itself. Please be assured, whether your concern is that we reward loyalty solely or that we also offer a higher level of benefits to those loyal members who also spend more, we are listening.
Thanks as always for allowing us the clarify these points.
Shannon Kelly
Director, Customer Insights
United Airlines
I will leave you this link for the next time someone comes into your office and wants you to put "some spin" on here while they dance around the issue....they could take lessons from these people!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqh8e2KYIrU
May 21, 2012, 4:21 pm
#769
Join Date: Apr 2004
Programs: UA 1K 3.01MM Hyatt Globalist (Lifetime) AA ExPlat (real), Lifetime UniClub (not from the 2MM).
Posts: 173
Over the last 28 or so years, I have chosen to purchase tickets on United even when they were not the cheapest (sometimes hundreds more), or most convenient. Back in the CTO days, my local office would look for low fares to destinations I frequented and encourage me to purchase tickets I would not have otherwise purchased.
All of this is found revenue. Given that the seats I usually buy would have been empty (based simply on when they were purchased and that the flights when out with empty seats), these are high value to United. What really matters though is that I am a consultant and routinely have a few very high revenue flights a year paid by my customers (on average 1-2 C fares TATL/TPAC a year). Again, I would pick United for these rather than other more convenient flights simply because I was always confident that I would be treated well.
May 21, 2012, 4:25 pm
#770
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
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UA had the gall to try to upsell E+ to me on a $5800 international Y fare to ICN. 
I would think that elites who are bound by such policies would appreciate that benefit.
May 21, 2012, 4:27 pm
#771
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
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Posts: 2,053
One would think that full-fare (or anything over lowest base + E+ cost) would automatically qualify one for E+ without having to pay "again" for E+.
May 21, 2012, 4:30 pm
#772
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Can't please everyone I guess.
May 21, 2012, 4:30 pm
#773
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ORD
Programs: Newly minted AA EXP Plat., disatisfied UA 1K, Marriott Silver & Hilton Gold
Posts: 704
Ditto to the statement below and a message to United:
If you want to sell product to Customers, learn who your Customers are and what they want to buy and then sell it to to them. If you think that's what you are doing, then take a closer look at it and ask yourself why your biggest Customers are fleeing and are so vocal. Biggest meaning GS, 1Ks, Platinums, Golds and yes the "lowly" Silvers who put a substantial amount of revenue on your financial statement. Lose your Customers and you lose your airline - not a good approach to building a business.
On a side note, your vocal Customers are not as dumb as you think they are. There are a lot of well educated folks who their company invests good money sending them all over the world on your airline. These are smart people that know more about your airline than you do. If you have an doubts that you are running this airline into the ground, take a look at your financials, your income and your current volumes - then look at what your competitors are doing. Wall Street is brutal to the poor performers and you'd be wise to figure it out sooner than later.
And why haven't you fired this Rainey character yet? Seems way too out of touch with reality to old a meaningful position in any decent company. I'd take a close look at the person who hired him to. A decision like that is a good sign you've got a bad decision maker on your hands.
If you want to sell product to Customers, learn who your Customers are and what they want to buy and then sell it to to them. If you think that's what you are doing, then take a closer look at it and ask yourself why your biggest Customers are fleeing and are so vocal. Biggest meaning GS, 1Ks, Platinums, Golds and yes the "lowly" Silvers who put a substantial amount of revenue on your financial statement. Lose your Customers and you lose your airline - not a good approach to building a business.
On a side note, your vocal Customers are not as dumb as you think they are. There are a lot of well educated folks who their company invests good money sending them all over the world on your airline. These are smart people that know more about your airline than you do. If you have an doubts that you are running this airline into the ground, take a look at your financials, your income and your current volumes - then look at what your competitors are doing. Wall Street is brutal to the poor performers and you'd be wise to figure it out sooner than later.
And why haven't you fired this Rainey character yet? Seems way too out of touch with reality to old a meaningful position in any decent company. I'd take a close look at the person who hired him to. A decision like that is a good sign you've got a bad decision maker on your hands.
Shannon,
As many have said, you really do seem like a wonderfully nice person, and we feel sorry for you trying to calm the flames in this firestorm. It seems obvious to me that management is now telling you what to say here on FT. But I have some bad news - your posts are now starting to not only not calm the flames, but you are fanning them - and making the fire worse.
How many thousands of posts here now talk of United being shady, lying, deceiftful, untransparent....
No - there is a lot of interest in the statment that Elites are over-entitled. And the feeling that that statement matches up very well with the culture we are seeing day in day out on the new UA and service at airports, on planes and in particular in relation to upgrades. You did not even address the point that has resulted in this thread having 40,000 page views in 3 days.
It's new to us! Are we missing something? Reduced upgrades for all elites. No1K Voice. No 1K Line. No 1K check in. Reduced milage for Gold. Reduced GPUs. Where is the greater access to benefits for higher elites.
I've not seen a single thread on FT since 3/3 stating that access to E+ is an issue for elites.
Yet, United does nothing to improve transperancy and honesty. Just more spin and lies.
12 months to explain to your best customers how upgrades work? How the hell can that take 12 months. It could be done by the end of this week. You won't have any customers left in 12 months.
As many have said, you really do seem like a wonderfully nice person, and we feel sorry for you trying to calm the flames in this firestorm. It seems obvious to me that management is now telling you what to say here on FT. But I have some bad news - your posts are now starting to not only not calm the flames, but you are fanning them - and making the fire worse.
How many thousands of posts here now talk of United being shady, lying, deceiftful, untransparent....
No - there is a lot of interest in the statment that Elites are over-entitled. And the feeling that that statement matches up very well with the culture we are seeing day in day out on the new UA and service at airports, on planes and in particular in relation to upgrades. You did not even address the point that has resulted in this thread having 40,000 page views in 3 days.
It's new to us! Are we missing something? Reduced upgrades for all elites. No1K Voice. No 1K Line. No 1K check in. Reduced milage for Gold. Reduced GPUs. Where is the greater access to benefits for higher elites.
I've not seen a single thread on FT since 3/3 stating that access to E+ is an issue for elites.
Yet, United does nothing to improve transperancy and honesty. Just more spin and lies.
12 months to explain to your best customers how upgrades work? How the hell can that take 12 months. It could be done by the end of this week. You won't have any customers left in 12 months.
May 21, 2012, 4:32 pm
#774
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I know you know full well that the issue of a full fare ticket not getting E+ access != the issue of masses of silvers taking up E+ seats
May 21, 2012, 4:33 pm
#775
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Texas
Programs: AA EXP, UA Premier Plat, Alaska MVP Gold, HHonors Diamond, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 2,053
This has nothing to do with status and everything to do with fare basis. Charging a higher fare AND E+ is stupid... and tells your higher fare customer that they're welcome to pay more for an E- seat and can eff themselves if they want something else.
May 21, 2012, 4:34 pm
#776
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Everywhere but home far too often
Programs: Too many
Posts: 401
Hi Everyone, we see there’s a lot of interest in our recent presentation at Bank of America. To clarify, the message that we’re investing in our Premier program and ensuring greater access to elite benefits at higher elite tiers is not a new one. An example of this is when our Premier tiers get access to Economy Plus seating. This change has materialized into a meaningfully better experience for our Gold members and above. In fact, in markets that have the highest proportion of Premier flyers, a higher percentage of Premier Platinum and Premier Gold members are getting access to Economy Plus (comparing February 2012 to April 2012, and comparing April 2011 to April 2012), while the percentage of Premier Silver members sitting in Economy Plus hasn’t decreased meaningfully. Some of those Premier Silver members may be choosing to purchase Economy Plus seating, but, in general, Economy Plus seating remains available at time of check-in.
While John was not referring to upgrades, we know they remain a hot topic, especially with respect to selling upgrades. As discussed in other threads, our continued goal is to simply sell our First Class seats as close to their intended retail price as possible. The Y/B/M instant upgrade fares that we offer our Premier members, for example, are only a modest discount from our retail First Class fares, and the buy-ups we offer based on these fares are simply an extension of this. In the coming year, we will be adding more transparency to the upgrade process, and will also be making important improvements to the upgrade system itself. Please be assured, whether your concern is that we reward loyalty solely or that we also offer a higher level of benefits to those loyal members who also spend more, we are listening.
Thanks as always for allowing us the clarify these points.
Shannon Kelly
Director, Customer Insights
United Airlines
While John was not referring to upgrades, we know they remain a hot topic, especially with respect to selling upgrades. As discussed in other threads, our continued goal is to simply sell our First Class seats as close to their intended retail price as possible. The Y/B/M instant upgrade fares that we offer our Premier members, for example, are only a modest discount from our retail First Class fares, and the buy-ups we offer based on these fares are simply an extension of this. In the coming year, we will be adding more transparency to the upgrade process, and will also be making important improvements to the upgrade system itself. Please be assured, whether your concern is that we reward loyalty solely or that we also offer a higher level of benefits to those loyal members who also spend more, we are listening.
Thanks as always for allowing us the clarify these points.
Shannon Kelly
Director, Customer Insights
United Airlines
It is nice to see UA respond to this. I appreciate you taking the time to address the concerns. Being a 1K who is relatively close to 2MM and has been very loyal for many years I really do hope that the new management is listening. Honestly since 3/3 my experiences have been bad, specifically with upgrades, which IMO is the major benefit of a loyalty program for a frequent flyer.
UA absolutely should try to sell their F seats at full price, and if they do when I am flying on a Y ticket I will gladly sit in Y. However since 3/3 I have seen in person a GM get a $100 upgrade offer while there were only 2 seats left and I was about 14 on the UG list. That never happened before the merger and the upgrade offer was nowhere near the fare difference they paid between Y and F.
Also in regards to systemwides expecting a 1K to pay a huge premium for a chance at an upgrade while you still sell them for less than the fare difference is not competitive with what American offers. This is a huge sticking point for me. While my leisure travel may not be high fare tickets my work travel at times is. A couple years ago it was over 50K miles in premium seat tickets. I gave UA that business because I got use out of the systemwides that UA gave me in return for being loyal. UA used to only have S below W on most international markets. Paying that fare difference was acceptable as it was about $20-$70 each way many times. If UA ends up selling all the C seats at full price and my upgrade doesn't clear I am not that upset and just sit in the seat I paid for because it only cost me a couple dollars not hundreds. However a 1K gets absolutely nothing currently for buying a W fare and not clearing. Many times that is a $500+ difference. That causes me to be upset, especially when clearly the system isn't working properly.
No airline is perfect, and I realize the travel industry is very competitive. However in past years I think the reason UA had so many loyal 1K's was because they really did treat them well and they gave the benefits that they actually could use in return. After being treated so poorly I did take AA up on the offer and in all fairness since 3/3 I have felt much more appreciated on an AA plane then a UA one.
Another hot item is the Y and B fares clearing ahead of 1K's (especially the discounted corporate and government YCA). Again if the current UA thinks that a silver on a high fare this time is more important than a 1K who may be on a low fare on this trip but last week paid more than that same silver may have done in 6 months, then clearly UA could care less about their 1K’s long-term loyalty and only cares about the current couple hundred dollars from a silver today.
Please UA, listen to the feedback and bring back the benefits that 1K's used to have. Currently AA is way better at the EXP level than UA is at the 1K level. I never thought I would ever say that either. I will hit top status on both this year. If UA doesn’t change and go back to something close to what it was for many years then unfortunately I will have to stop flying the airline I used to be a big fan of in future years. Again I don't want to change but if this new strategy of how much you paid today is more important than how much you paid all year then I will have no choice.
May 21, 2012, 4:39 pm
#777
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Programs: AA EVP, United 1K and 2MM, Starwood Lifetime Platinum, Delta
Posts: 219
You're right about that. When you spend as much of your time sitting on UA metal as we must spend to qualify for 1K status year after year, it becomes a part of your life. Yes, it's a business. Yes, we need to follow our self-interest here and should not be emotional about it. But, it turns out that most if not all of us are actually humans and emotion is part of being human. And, when a company that you admire and respect and build a relationship with slaps you in the face, starts treating you with disdain, and then tells you that you were over-entitled, it's reasonable to be upset. At some point, we'll have to let this go and move on.
I admire the folks who have already gotten to that totally dispassionate 'fly whatever is cheapest and most convenient pattern.' As much as a lot of it is strictly business and a PITA- there are those moments when flying is fun - often when you were cashing on on your benefits to make it fun (paid for in $ and accepting inconvenience and stops and CR7s and the 'crap they switched to the old plane and i paid for business class' moments).
The equation's changed...we'll have to also.
May 21, 2012, 4:47 pm
#778
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ORD
Programs: AA, UA Plat, HH Gold, Marriott Amb
Posts: 418
He is blowing way to much sunshine about SHAREs. The comment about SHAREs being able to sell an E+ aisle for more than an E- middle was interesting, but if that's so, given that CO had revenue preferred seating, why didn't CO do it before? SHAREs takes weeks to sell a ticket; I'll believe it an sell an E+ aisle for more than a middle when I see it.
E+ Aisle $44
E+ Middle $33
Exit Aisle $54
Exit Middle $41
Limited Recline Exit Aisle $49
Limited Recline Exit Middle $36
May 21, 2012, 4:49 pm
#779
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,589
UA absolutely should try to sell their F seats at full price, and if they do when I am flying on a Y ticket I will gladly sit in Y. However since 3/3 I have seen in person a GM get a $100 upgrade offer while there were only 2 seats left and I was about 14 on the UG list. That never happened before the merger and the upgrade offer was nowhere near the fare difference they paid between Y and F.
Also in regards to systemwides expecting a 1K to pay a huge premium for a chance at an upgrade while you still sell them for less than the fare difference is not competitive with what American offers. This is a huge sticking point for me. While my leisure travel may not be high fare tickets my work travel at times is. A couple years ago it was over 50K miles in premium seat tickets. I gave UA that business because I got use out of the systemwides that UA gave me in return for being loyal. UA used to only have S below W on most international markets. Paying that fare difference was acceptable as it was about $20-$70 each way many times. If UA ends up selling all the C seats at full price and my upgrade doesn't clear I am not that upset and just sit in the seat I paid for because it only cost me a couple dollars not hundreds. However a 1K gets absolutely nothing currently for buying a W fare and not clearing. Many times that is a $500+ difference. That causes me to be upset, especially when clearly the system isn't working properly.
No airline is perfect, and I realize the travel industry is very competitive. However in past years I think the reason UA had so many loyal 1K's was because they really did treat them well and they gave the benefits that they actually could use in return. After being treated so poorly I did take AA up on the offer and in all fairness since 3/3 I have felt much more appreciated on an AA plane then a UA one.
Also in regards to systemwides expecting a 1K to pay a huge premium for a chance at an upgrade while you still sell them for less than the fare difference is not competitive with what American offers. This is a huge sticking point for me. While my leisure travel may not be high fare tickets my work travel at times is. A couple years ago it was over 50K miles in premium seat tickets. I gave UA that business because I got use out of the systemwides that UA gave me in return for being loyal. UA used to only have S below W on most international markets. Paying that fare difference was acceptable as it was about $20-$70 each way many times. If UA ends up selling all the C seats at full price and my upgrade doesn't clear I am not that upset and just sit in the seat I paid for because it only cost me a couple dollars not hundreds. However a 1K gets absolutely nothing currently for buying a W fare and not clearing. Many times that is a $500+ difference. That causes me to be upset, especially when clearly the system isn't working properly.
No airline is perfect, and I realize the travel industry is very competitive. However in past years I think the reason UA had so many loyal 1K's was because they really did treat them well and they gave the benefits that they actually could use in return. After being treated so poorly I did take AA up on the offer and in all fairness since 3/3 I have felt much more appreciated on an AA plane then a UA one.
May 21, 2012, 4:55 pm
#780
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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Posts: 13,437
Shannon,
I appreciate your involvement in our dialog but I find it bizarre that you choose to engage with us by focusing on claims that access to E+ has become easier for some classes of Premier flyers. Your first paragraph focuses on an issue that I have never seen expressed as a concern here. Maybe it has, but certainly not with nearly the breadth or degree of concern as has been expressed with regard to upgrades. You are discussing a topic that is neither relevant to this thread nor a pressing issue for anyone here, as far as I can tell.
I appreciate your involvement in our dialog but I find it bizarre that you choose to engage with us by focusing on claims that access to E+ has become easier for some classes of Premier flyers. Your first paragraph focuses on an issue that I have never seen expressed as a concern here. Maybe it has, but certainly not with nearly the breadth or degree of concern as has been expressed with regard to upgrades. You are discussing a topic that is neither relevant to this thread nor a pressing issue for anyone here, as far as I can tell.
In March, we converted over to what we called SHARES, which is our single reservation system. This was a huge effort for us. It was the single largest technology migration in the history of aviation. What we effectively became is one airline to the passenger. We created a single reservation system, a single Mileage Plus system, a single check in process to the customer. We created a single mobile application. All of this, it basically enables us to achieve the $800 million to $900 million in revenue synergies that we said we would.
[...]
Another example is the ability to dynamically price our ancillary revenue offering. Economy Plus is something we were not able to change the prices on prior to this SHARES migration. Now we can change the price of our Economy Plus offering based upon the day of week, the time of day, the window, middle, or aisle seat, and it basically enables us the ability to revenue manage our ancillary product system. So SHARES is a great system. We're excited about the opportunities this holds for us.
So, if SHARES is so flexible, why couldn't UA have done one or more of:[...]
Another example is the ability to dynamically price our ancillary revenue offering. Economy Plus is something we were not able to change the prices on prior to this SHARES migration. Now we can change the price of our Economy Plus offering based upon the day of week, the time of day, the window, middle, or aisle seat, and it basically enables us the ability to revenue manage our ancillary product system. So SHARES is a great system. We're excited about the opportunities this holds for us.
- price E+ for silvers at a discount for those that did not want to wait for for T-24
- Offered E+ annual at a discount for silvers (dot bomb offered RCC at a discount for elites, so it surely could have offered E+
-- Indeed, SHARES can't even sell E+ annual to any customer
- Reserve some rows of elite-complimentary E+ for golds, plats, 1Ks, and GSes until T-24, allowing Silvers to get comp E+ before T-24.
- etc.
As I wrote earlier, Rainey is blowing sunshine on SHARES. I like that SHARES has a slightly easier way to find upgrade space (but really, only slightly after you try it; it still insists on pushing non-confirmable long hauls as options). I like that it tracks PQMS (albeit inaccurately most of the time). I like the horizontal seat maps. I like that the receipt can be printed (but don't like that the receipt is corrupted after upgrades). But that's all I like; the rest is worse that dot bomb.
Cool, now give "over-entitled" Silvers a shot at E+ before T-24. E.g. sell a silver a limited reclined non exit E+ seat for $0.