United CFO Rainey Implies Certain Elites were "Over Entitled".
#61
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Your description just nailed me and my relationship with Delta Skymiles.
Personally, I think high-mileage and low-fare paying customer do bring lots of incremental revenue to an airline by using up excess (cheap) seat capacity and forcing others to buy higher fare buckets. I've seen the contrary case argued often at FT. In one sense, it does not matter to us, the flyers. There will ALWAYS be an airline who values high mileage customers. We are airline customers, not stockholders.
No need to help a airline see the mistake of its business decisions when it is so much easier to walk over to the competition.
I think you all get that United 1K's and GS's are being hosed.
I am surprised that United mid-tiers are not equally upset. Only a 50% bonus on redeemable miles for United 50k flyers, and 75% bonus for 75k flyers. It's still 100% for the equivalent at Delta or American.
Why waste time hoping United will change? Just choose between American and Delta, and be done with it!
Personally, I think high-mileage and low-fare paying customer do bring lots of incremental revenue to an airline by using up excess (cheap) seat capacity and forcing others to buy higher fare buckets. I've seen the contrary case argued often at FT. In one sense, it does not matter to us, the flyers. There will ALWAYS be an airline who values high mileage customers. We are airline customers, not stockholders.
No need to help a airline see the mistake of its business decisions when it is so much easier to walk over to the competition.
I think you all get that United 1K's and GS's are being hosed.
I am surprised that United mid-tiers are not equally upset. Only a 50% bonus on redeemable miles for United 50k flyers, and 75% bonus for 75k flyers. It's still 100% for the equivalent at Delta or American.
Why waste time hoping United will change? Just choose between American and Delta, and be done with it!
But that has never been the way PMCO analyzes its operation.
I think, at its root, it indicates a desire to try to reduce the inherent risk that pervades the airline business, namely that to commit costly resources to entitled elites is risky while revenue from a kettle's ToD is hard cash in the bank.
#62
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
"We have certain groups in this (Mileage Plus) program that were over entitled..." according to United's CFO John Rainey, as per his presentation at the BofA Transportation Conference held on May 17th. The entire webcast is available on United's investor relations website, and he makes the comment 11- 12 minutes into the presentation. Since the CFO is a PMCO guy, I imagine he is referring to PMUA fliers. Mr. Rainey also raves about Shares.
So, I guess we have the answer to all of the complaints enumerated by Premiers, 1Ks, GS, MM, etc. We were simply over entitled, not loyal!! Our new airline.
So, I guess we have the answer to all of the complaints enumerated by Premiers, 1Ks, GS, MM, etc. We were simply over entitled, not loyal!! Our new airline.
Thank you for sharing.
As many other posters have mentioned, I'm really glad that these **** are not over-entitled for their multi-million dollar salaries and bonuses.
#63
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SEA
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Seriously! Do people not understand what socialism is? Government controlling the means of production. In what possible sense does a private corporation's policies have anything to do with government control of production?
If you want to use an epithet pick one that is relevant.
If you want to use an epithet pick one that is relevant.
#64
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Oh it is? Tell me how profitable was COdbaUA last quarter compared to Delta, who actually upgrades their elites and provides the plane w/ lots of IFE.. Or even AA for that matter?
The blatant COdbaUA apologism doesn't work when the facts don't fit what you're saying
Oh it is? Tell me how profitable was COdbaUA last quarter compared to Delta, who actually upgrades their elites and provides the plane w/ lots of IFE.. Or even AA for that matter?
The blatant COdbaUA apologism doesn't work when the facts don't fit what you're saying
I do not agree with this approach one bit. In fact, an earlier iteration of these policies led me to bolt from CO years ago.
But I did try to understand them, had some fairly in-depth conversations with CO executives, and researched their public comments.
I'm not apologizing for any of this which I dislike as much as you. I'm really just trying to inform and explain, to attempt to replace understandable anger and emotion with a more rational explanation (even if I do not agree with it).
#65
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
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Your description just nailed me and my relationship with Delta Skymiles.
Personally, I think high-mileage and low-fare paying customer do bring lots of incremental revenue to an airline by using up excess (cheap) seat capacity and forcing others to buy higher fare buckets. I've seen the contrary case argued often at FT. In one sense, it does not matter to us, the flyers. There will ALWAYS be an airline who values high mileage customers. We are airline customers, not stockholders.
No need to help a airline see the mistake of its business decisions when it is so much easier to walk over to the competition.
I think you all get that United 1K's and GS's are being hosed.
I am surprised that United mid-tiers are not equally upset. Only a 50% bonus on redeemable miles for United 50k flyers, and 75% bonus for 75k flyers. It's still 100% for the equivalent at Delta or American.
Why waste time hoping United will change? Just choose between American and Delta, and be done with it!
Personally, I think high-mileage and low-fare paying customer do bring lots of incremental revenue to an airline by using up excess (cheap) seat capacity and forcing others to buy higher fare buckets. I've seen the contrary case argued often at FT. In one sense, it does not matter to us, the flyers. There will ALWAYS be an airline who values high mileage customers. We are airline customers, not stockholders.
No need to help a airline see the mistake of its business decisions when it is so much easier to walk over to the competition.
I think you all get that United 1K's and GS's are being hosed.
I am surprised that United mid-tiers are not equally upset. Only a 50% bonus on redeemable miles for United 50k flyers, and 75% bonus for 75k flyers. It's still 100% for the equivalent at Delta or American.
Why waste time hoping United will change? Just choose between American and Delta, and be done with it!
no more exclusive benefits
Dedicated GS line gone or answered by total newbies
GS email answered in 3 weeks or more
GS service at airports non existent any longer
GS dedicated agents on international flights hardly there any longer
GS pre boarding only on paper ( maybe 1 out of 10)
GS meal choice the same (2 out of 10 for me on paid F)
Upgrades AFTER TODs or not at all. Last week on UA125 3 F seats were open after boarding. GA pulls 3 people up, non 1k or GS; they were very surprised themselves a GS from E+ stood up and complained. GA ignored him.
GS is just a very expensive version of silver but with better luggage tags
Dedicated GS line gone or answered by total newbies
GS email answered in 3 weeks or more
GS service at airports non existent any longer
GS dedicated agents on international flights hardly there any longer
GS pre boarding only on paper ( maybe 1 out of 10)
GS meal choice the same (2 out of 10 for me on paid F)
Upgrades AFTER TODs or not at all. Last week on UA125 3 F seats were open after boarding. GA pulls 3 people up, non 1k or GS; they were very surprised themselves a GS from E+ stood up and complained. GA ignored him.
GS is just a very expensive version of silver but with better luggage tags
#66
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I'm predicting that this will become one of the most important threads on this forum this year. As I stated earlier, I personally feel that it speaks volumes about the COdbaUA mindset. All elites should be outraged by this statement, and, excepting locations with no other alternative, I strongly suggest that people vote with their feet and move their business from UA. This type of behavior should not be tolerated.
#67
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I'd agree if other airlines were doing this. They're not. Sure there's occasional cutbacks of things like checked bag benefits but DL, AA, and US do much better on upgrades for the top tier than UA does
I'd agree if other airlines were doing this. They're not. Sure there's occasional cutbacks of things like checked bag benefits but DL, AA, and US do much better on upgrades for the top tier than UA does
#68
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Okay. So in those discussions, if CO management feels that way- just what the heck is the point of a loyalty program ?
Okay. So in those discussions, if CO management feels that way- just what the heck is the point of a loyalty program ?
#69
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
I've got a simple question. If it's so terrible for a flyer to achieve 1K status on cheap fares, then why is the airline selling the cheap fares in the first place? Is the flyer at fault for buying what the airline is selling or is the airline at fault for selling something it apparently shouldn't be selling?
#70
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: iad/dca
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Shares, coffee, upgrades,attitude
"Hindsight is 20/20, but, we underestimated peoples capacity to absorb change"
1K BIS is not to be sniffed at. I don't feel particularly entitled. I just expect clear rules and fair application. There was a time when they desperately needed loyalty. Next time around they shouldn't expect it. They have become over entitled. A lot of what they did for us was done by a more robust reservation system that figured out who we were and took care of us with little human intervention. I saw that a couple times where they really came through for me last year when they cancelled and reaccomodated seamessly without my asking for anything. That was the beauty of it. A relatively low cost way to make high mileage people feel appreciated. I used them for all my personal travel and steered business travel their way. I might add that the elite tag on a record also showed in human interaction. People were trained to make the extra effort for the hi mile passengers. Did they go too low? Were they too generous? Did it cost them that much? Who knows but now I feel like I have been singled out for punishment even revenge for sticking with them. This is a real nasty bunch we are dealing with.
1K BIS is not to be sniffed at. I don't feel particularly entitled. I just expect clear rules and fair application. There was a time when they desperately needed loyalty. Next time around they shouldn't expect it. They have become over entitled. A lot of what they did for us was done by a more robust reservation system that figured out who we were and took care of us with little human intervention. I saw that a couple times where they really came through for me last year when they cancelled and reaccomodated seamessly without my asking for anything. That was the beauty of it. A relatively low cost way to make high mileage people feel appreciated. I used them for all my personal travel and steered business travel their way. I might add that the elite tag on a record also showed in human interaction. People were trained to make the extra effort for the hi mile passengers. Did they go too low? Were they too generous? Did it cost them that much? Who knows but now I feel like I have been singled out for punishment even revenge for sticking with them. This is a real nasty bunch we are dealing with.
#71
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Remember. FF programs make a profit for the airlines. It's a HUGE business worth millions and millions of dollars in revenue to the airline. Chase alone pays UA millions of $$ a year for the miles they give out. These Programs started as a marketing idea. Now they are separate corporations that almost always make a profit. (look at the rental car companies. They were paying the airlines aprx $2 per rental to give customers airline miles. They now pass that charge back to us
Right I agree w/ this. But what I don't get is why they'd try to hose the top tier first. Yes i know the mid tiers lost mileage bonuses and all that, but for some reason- they want to dramatically reduce our upgrade rates. Do they think a 1K that had a 95% rate go down to a 50% rate (where mine is now- oh and I haven't bought anything below a W fare) is going to have incentive to keep spending on an airline that won't reward loyalty and would rather take $15 from a Non-elite for the seat?
Originally Posted by chinatraderjmr
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I'd agree if other airlines were doing this. They're not. Sure there's occasional cutbacks of things like checked bag benefits but DL, AA, and US do much better on upgrades for the top tier than UA does
I'd agree if other airlines were doing this. They're not. Sure there's occasional cutbacks of things like checked bag benefits but DL, AA, and US do much better on upgrades for the top tier than UA does
#72
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Honolulu
Programs: UA 1K 1.7mm
Posts: 449
MileagePlus: "We had certain groups that were overentitled, if you will"
"The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off"
"The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off"
#73
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,960
Maybe we can start a thread like:
"United Top Elite Frequent Flyers State United Management are ..."
The problem for comments like this is that it gives employees a license to not value their customers. It really sets a bad example.
Smisek talks about the new culture of the combined company in these safety videos. Maybe this is it?
"United Top Elite Frequent Flyers State United Management are ..."
The problem for comments like this is that it gives employees a license to not value their customers. It really sets a bad example.
Smisek talks about the new culture of the combined company in these safety videos. Maybe this is it?
#74
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I fail to see how someone flying 25K a year was "over entitled" to get more than one free checked bag when someone with a credit card with a $395 annual fee gets a Club membership valued at $475 AND two free checked bags.
Honestly, as a silver never expecting to get upgrades, the bags and E+ were the two things I cared about most.
Honestly, as a silver never expecting to get upgrades, the bags and E+ were the two things I cared about most.
Sure, 25,000 is a lot of miles.
Then again, if you're flying 25,000 on $300 transcons, it's only about $1,500 of total annual revenue. And when that customer achieves elite status he/she excepts perks in return (not just one free bag)
The point is the seats that represent those 25,000 miles will always get sold, and they might as well sell them to kettles who receive no freebies.
As far as the credit card, the give-aways are pretty small, and UA shares in the annual fee with bank so it's guaranteed cash in the bank.
#75
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Slightly to the left of center
Posts: 3,475
"We have certain groups in this (Mileage Plus) program that were over entitled..." according to United's CFO John Rainey, as per his presentation at the BofA Transportation Conference held on May 17th. The entire webcast is available on United's investor relations website, and he makes the comment 11- 12 minutes into the presentation. Since the CFO is a PMCO guy, I imagine he is referring to PMUA fliers. Mr. Rainey also raves about Shares.
So, I guess we have the answer to all of the complaints enumerated by Premiers, 1Ks, GS, MM, etc. We were simply over entitled, not loyal!! Our new airline.
So, I guess we have the answer to all of the complaints enumerated by Premiers, 1Ks, GS, MM, etc. We were simply over entitled, not loyal!! Our new airline.
Emphasis mine.
Have and Were are confusing to me.
Is he saying elites were over entitled, or they have over entitled elites now?