IAH-OIL-TRASH

NickP 1k's got the examples. Each check-in and submission of luggage is followed by boarding of the "first" carrier. At each check-in, the first carrier defines the baggage policy.

GregMM

Except that's contrary to the published rules on their website:

This says that the rules for the first airline that you present your bags to on the roundtrip ticket apply to the entire roundtrip ticket.

IAH-OIL-TRASH

Implicit in the quote you posted is that it is a Hwaiian-issued ticket. as marketing carrier, they have opted to collect baggage fes both ways for a Hawaiian Air flight originating in HNL. If you look a little farther, you'll see that Hawaiian may not accord passengers the same baggage fee exemptions doled out by their partners. To make ot simple, just read it as "if you're checking in for a Hawaiian -operated flight, UA's frequent flyer baggage fee waiver does not apply. Hawaiian will collect, no matter how you decide to misread their rules.

LIH Prem

I believe you are still quoting old rules before the DOT made changes to the rules this year.

Before the changes, you were spot on. Though Hawaiian seems to be doing it however they want to.

Some of the rules were delayed, but I'm not sure for how long. The main thing was that they expected all carriers to clearly display all baggage fees that pax would be liable for, regardless of codeshare operations, etc. Also, there were significant carrier rules that were in direct conflict with first carrier rules.

-David

IAH-OIL-TRASH

I just went through the DOT's Federal Register posting of. The baggage rule. The implementation of "first carrier" determining baggage fees clearly is at each check-in of baggage. It basically says UA's policy would apply at a UA check-in counter, and a HA policy would apply at a Hawaiian counter. The rule prohibits, say, Hawaiian Air charging for the second leg of a UA to HA LAX/HNL/OGG trip. On the other hand, HA can apply their policy, collect $25 for a bag on the return trip. The UA elite status means nothing because Hawaiian policy does not recognize that status as a means of avoiding bag charges. People are looking at the rule and misinterpreting "itinieries" as meaning everything on their itinieries vs the DOT's use of "itinieries" as being a chain of flights/bag possession after check-in. Once the passenger receives his bag in Maui, the chain of possession is done. A new one starts at the next check-in. Collection of $25 by Hawaiian is certainly not contrary to the rule. According to the rule, the marketing carrier must disclose on the first page prices are presented a clear disclosure of any fees that may ultimately be due. Ponce has zero argument against HA, but may have a gripe w/ UA.

GregMM

Sounds like the website doesn't match practice then. In any case, even what they have now is confusing.

LIH Prem

reference please? When I looked I couldn't find anything.

Did they drop the significant carrier rules?

Thanks,
David

Jonce

In two separate conversations with the 1K line, United stated quite clearly that it's the originating carrier of the entire itinerary, not of an individual leg of the itinerary. Of course that's their interpretation which may not be quite the same as Hawaiian's interpretation. However, I can add that the complaint that I filed with DOT here:
http://www.dot.gov/individuals/air-c...t-comment-form
was sent the very next day to Hawaiian. I take that as a sign that the DOT agreed with the entire itinerary and not the individual leg interpretation.


In any case, it does seem to be a significant source of revenue for Hawaiian -- and one that they are not likely to change w/o more input from the DOT. Here may be a chance for FT members to encourage the DOT to help get things straightened out.

gholly

Does anyone have recent experience to comment on? I realize that it sounds like it's your luck with the check-in agent. But if I go by the supposed "rules" - how do you think this will pan out? If I'm KOA-HNL-EWR (HA--> UA) would I be charged the $17 inter-island fee or the $25 North America Fee? I'm guessing maybe, if they check my bags all the way through so we don't have to collect & re-check in HNL then they could, theoretically charge $25?

LIH Prem

Assuming same itinerary, you should probably be prepared to pay $25 and they will check them through to your final destination.

If your flights are on separate itineraries, they may not check your bags through. Then it would be just $17, and the entire baggage/security/recheck dance in HNL.

-David

Sam P. Goodman

I flew LIH-HNL-LAX-SJC on a UA ticket this past Sunday. The first leg was on HA and the rest on UA. When I went to check bags with HA, they wanted $17 per bag since my only HA leg was interisland. I told them "no thank you" and carried my bag on.

IAH-OIL-TRASH

So, to be clear, the ticket was issued by UA as the marketing carrier and the first flight was Hawaiian-operated with a UA code share flight number? Did UA list baggage charge as $0? Did it mention anywhere about potential baggage charges at Hawaiian check-in?

asu-ua772

If you're leaving Hawai'i for the mainland and checking in luggage, it's well known on FT that you steer clear of HA unless you're prepared to shell out the money for their baggage fees. HA doesn't honor other airlines' elite status when it comes to baggage fee waivers (or much of anything else, for that matter)...so simply put, even UA GS flyers get charged baggage fees when flying Hawaiian.

And everything I mentioned above is regardless of whether or not it's a single ticket connecting to a UA flight, two separate itineraries, etc.

av8r316

Data point:

I purchased the following itinerary from united.com: ORD-HNL-OGG-HNL-ORD

At OGG, HA charged a $25 bag fee for the return, despite my UA itinerary explicitly stating $0 for the first bag.

I contacted HA for a refund (providing them with clear documentation), and was denied for the following reason: "The "first marketing carrier" policy applies to the actual baggage policy of the carrier and does not apply to the free baggage allowance offered to its' elite members."

I followed up the response with text from Regs 399.87 and 399.85 (the primary basis for my complaint), and additionally, disputed that UA's "actual baggage policy" is separate from their "free bag allowance". I believe that since UA's baggage policy is published and administered together with certain elite benefits, the elite benefits are not separable from the policy. If they are separable, then the top-down argument could be made that the "actual baggage policy" is to not charge, and fees begin and are increased for lesser- and non-elites.

I'm awaiting a response, and plan to file a DOT complaint if a full refund is not issued.

I am empathetic to HA's case, and my complaint is not on the basis of whether I believe it's conceptually right or wrong to charge the fee, but rather that it's against the rules. Does HA even have the capability to see what baggage fees are on an individual basis?

LIH Prem

PLease file a DOT complaint. HA's policies are not even compliant with their own rules and examples on their own web site.

-David