Mileage Between Some City Pairs is Different After System Integration-Resolved by UA.
Mar 5, 2012, 10:19 am
#76
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Mar 5, 2012, 10:24 am
#77
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And it goes on ... SEA-ORD was 1720, now 1714. Oh well, what they lose on each one, they make up on volume. Sort of like skimming 5 cents each over millions of transactions.
Mar 5, 2012, 10:25 am
#78
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SFO-PDX was 550mi; now, 549mi.
Mar 5, 2012, 11:11 am
#80
Join Date: Jun 2007
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This is ridiculous, and it is not PMCO mileage:
IAH-EWR went from 1415 to 1395 - 20 miles less
EWR-MAD went from 3607 to 3594 - 13 miles less
33 miles x 2 = 66 miles less per round trip
IAH-EWR went from 1415 to 1395 - 20 miles less
EWR-MAD went from 3607 to 3594 - 13 miles less
33 miles x 2 = 66 miles less per round trip
Mar 5, 2012, 11:16 am
#81
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Did IAH move 5 miles closer to LAX
Have been flying this route for 30 years.
Its always been 1,379, not its 1,374???
What gives?
Its always been 1,379, not its 1,374???
What gives?
Mar 5, 2012, 11:25 am
#82
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Originally Posted by Office Space
"It uses all these extra decimal places that just get rounded off. So we simplified the whole thing, we rounded them all down, drop the remainder into an account we opened."
"So, you're stealing?"
"Ah no, you don't understand. It's very complicated. It's, uh, it's aggregate, so I'm talking about fractions of a penny here. And over time they add up to a lot."
"Oh okay. So you're gonna be making a lot of money, right?"
"Yeah."
"Right. It's not yours?"
"Well it becomes ours."
"How is that not stealing?"
"I don't think I'm explaining this very well.... I'm just talking about fractions of a penny here. But we do it from a much bigger tray and we do it a couple a million times."
"So, you're stealing?"
"Ah no, you don't understand. It's very complicated. It's, uh, it's aggregate, so I'm talking about fractions of a penny here. And over time they add up to a lot."
"Oh okay. So you're gonna be making a lot of money, right?"
"Yeah."
"Right. It's not yours?"
"Well it becomes ours."
"How is that not stealing?"
"I don't think I'm explaining this very well.... I'm just talking about fractions of a penny here. But we do it from a much bigger tray and we do it a couple a million times."
Mar 5, 2012, 11:26 am
#83
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IAH --> SEA and SEA --> ANC were both reduced as well (total of 9 miles). Glancing at a few routes I may earn 1,000+ fewer PQM's this year based on these small changes.
Mar 5, 2012, 11:39 am
#84
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Mar 5, 2012, 12:23 pm
#85
Join Date: May 2004
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Anyone contacted UA Insider on this matter?
Someone must have found out how to take some millions of miles during a year from FF. Shame, shame, shame.
F.R.
Someone must have found out how to take some millions of miles during a year from FF. Shame, shame, shame.
F.R.
Mar 5, 2012, 1:22 pm
#86
Join Date: Oct 2001
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This is classic penny wise/pound foolish stuff. Media organisations love to pick up stories like this one about seemingly frivolous economies that drive customers nuts and create an appearance that the business is so cheap as to be threadbare. This stuff really does cost as it undermines efforts to build a brand reputation to justify premium pricing.
Unlike Ryanair, which revels in it's cheapest of the cheap branding, United often prices it's product at a premium, with its loyalty program as one of the major reasons customers are prepared to pay that premium. Tinkering with that with a sneaky reduction in mileage between cities that makes people incredulous is pretty dumb. However, if the airline is truly run by a bunch of quants, they will have figured out a value on the one time brand damage and must think it is worth it. The same logic drove removing blankets and pillows, free meals etc.. The problem with this one is that there is an objective standard. There is an actual distance between two points and if the new totals are less than that, people will stay incredulous until they change their mileage back to an objective standard.
In the meantime for those with existing reservations - call once your flight is credited and ask for the original mileage that showed on the reservation under PMUA. I think there may be contractual grounds for that if say SFO-JFK 2,586 miles is printed on your e-ticket. At the very least, it will be interesting to read the script they give mileage plus to explain how the distance between two points has shortened, especially on RT bridging SHARES. "What do you mean Washington moved 12 miles closer to SFO while I was there? I didn't feel anything".
Ok - cue a flyertalker with a cartography or airline navigation background. The airlines must use a database with consistent distances between airports. Where can we get access to those objective distances?
Unlike Ryanair, which revels in it's cheapest of the cheap branding, United often prices it's product at a premium, with its loyalty program as one of the major reasons customers are prepared to pay that premium. Tinkering with that with a sneaky reduction in mileage between cities that makes people incredulous is pretty dumb. However, if the airline is truly run by a bunch of quants, they will have figured out a value on the one time brand damage and must think it is worth it. The same logic drove removing blankets and pillows, free meals etc.. The problem with this one is that there is an objective standard. There is an actual distance between two points and if the new totals are less than that, people will stay incredulous until they change their mileage back to an objective standard.
In the meantime for those with existing reservations - call once your flight is credited and ask for the original mileage that showed on the reservation under PMUA. I think there may be contractual grounds for that if say SFO-JFK 2,586 miles is printed on your e-ticket. At the very least, it will be interesting to read the script they give mileage plus to explain how the distance between two points has shortened, especially on RT bridging SHARES. "What do you mean Washington moved 12 miles closer to SFO while I was there? I didn't feel anything".
Ok - cue a flyertalker with a cartography or airline navigation background. The airlines must use a database with consistent distances between airports. Where can we get access to those objective distances?
Mar 5, 2012, 1:58 pm
#87
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Mke to ord was 67 miles, now 66
ord to pwm was an even 900 down to 894
ord to pwm was an even 900 down to 894
Mar 5, 2012, 2:12 pm
#88
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: SJC
Programs: UA 1K
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I mentioned my suspicion earlier in the thread, but I am now pretty convinced that the discrepancies are the result of using a great-circle formula that assumes Earth is a sphere instead of the more accurate Vincenty's formula that assumes Earth is an oblate spheroid.
If you want to test for yourself, use http://www.gcmap.com/ to get the result using Vincenty's formula. Then paste the lat/long of the airports into the boxes at http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html, which uses calculations that assume a spherical Earth.
Now whether this was intentional or simply an uninformed programmer using the wrong formula is up for debate. As they say, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. But it certainly is possible UA did a study and found using the less accurate formula would lead to fewer miles being awarded. And given that nearly every route changed, I would hope the changes would have never made it through QA without UA management signing off on them.
If you want to test for yourself, use http://www.gcmap.com/ to get the result using Vincenty's formula. Then paste the lat/long of the airports into the boxes at http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html, which uses calculations that assume a spherical Earth.
Now whether this was intentional or simply an uninformed programmer using the wrong formula is up for debate. As they say, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. But it certainly is possible UA did a study and found using the less accurate formula would lead to fewer miles being awarded. And given that nearly every route changed, I would hope the changes would have never made it through QA without UA management signing off on them.
Mar 5, 2012, 3:11 pm
#89
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Just checked AA site and they are still giving 2475 for LAX/JFK (UA now 2466)
Mar 5, 2012, 3:19 pm
#90
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Understood. My habit of referring to the combined airline as Continental is to blame here. Freudian slip on my part.