Last edit by: WineCountryUA
Presented as Q&A format (Originally posted by Alex_B)
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
- The open-jaw portion must be smaller (in miles) than any other leg. -While technically true for revenue fare construction this is not strictly enforced on awards.
- For awards between CONUS/Canada/Alaska and South Asia award regions the maximum number of segments is 5 segments each way on a round-trip and 4 segments on a one-way. (Note that many FTers report recently being read a memo that imposes an eight segment maximum on a roundtrip (4 each way). It is unclear whether this eight-segment maximum is limited to South Asia routings through Europe or North Asia, or has broader application.)
- Stopovers and open-jaws are NOT additive. You do not get extra stops included in your itinerary simply by making an open-jaw out of it.
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Rules for Open Jaw & Stopover Award Flights (Consolidated)
#661
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: BGM/ PHL
Programs: US (Silver, *A Silver), AA, Starbucks (Gold)
Posts: 2,242
Incorrect (unless United changed the rules in the last month or so, and I'm pretty sure they didn't). UA round trip awards can have two open jaws and one stopover. In other words, you can book AAA-BBB(stopover)-CCC(destination)/DDD-EEE, provided that AAA and EEE are in the same region, and CCC and DDD are in the same region.
I don't see anything wrong with the OP's itinerary, although (a) I don't know the details of awards within South Asia, and (b) I'd have to look at a map to see whether the outbound and return are grossly different in length (which could be an issue).
I don't see anything wrong with the OP's itinerary, although (a) I don't know the details of awards within South Asia, and (b) I'd have to look at a map to see whether the outbound and return are grossly different in length (which could be an issue).
#663
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Los Angeles / Basel
Programs: UA 1K MM, AA EXP, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 26,923
#665
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Programs: UA 1K, DL Platinum, BA Gold
Posts: 181
Something is amiss here. Your new proposed routing is actually SHORTER than the current one:
BKK-SIN-JNB-CPT = 7064 miles
BKK-BOM-JNB-CPT = 6980 miles
So if it were an MPM issue, you'd already have the issue with your current routing. I find it a bit odd that your stopover is in SE Asia though. I know it is not the technical definition, but shouldn't the stop be somewhat "on the way" to your destination? You're flying thousands of miles past your destination in order to insert a stopover. It seems like a more logical construction would have been having BKK as the destination and CPT as a stop on the way back. Either way, their explanation of MPM violation seems bogus since you are actually shortening the route. And I thought the new UA follows what CO did and basically ignores the MPM.
I'm thinking that you essentially have an illegal routing right now (how many miles did they charge you and in what cabin?). And their response to you trying to change it is to find any way to say no in order to not disclose that they allowed an illegal routing in the first place. I'd try again and if they give the MPM explanation show them that you are shortening the routing, so how could the MPM issue be occurring all the sudden
BKK-SIN-JNB-CPT = 7064 miles
BKK-BOM-JNB-CPT = 6980 miles
So if it were an MPM issue, you'd already have the issue with your current routing. I find it a bit odd that your stopover is in SE Asia though. I know it is not the technical definition, but shouldn't the stop be somewhat "on the way" to your destination? You're flying thousands of miles past your destination in order to insert a stopover. It seems like a more logical construction would have been having BKK as the destination and CPT as a stop on the way back. Either way, their explanation of MPM violation seems bogus since you are actually shortening the route. And I thought the new UA follows what CO did and basically ignores the MPM.
I'm thinking that you essentially have an illegal routing right now (how many miles did they charge you and in what cabin?). And their response to you trying to change it is to find any way to say no in order to not disclose that they allowed an illegal routing in the first place. I'd try again and if they give the MPM explanation show them that you are shortening the routing, so how could the MPM issue be occurring all the sudden
SBN-ORD (UA Y) ORD-BRU (UA F) BRU-CDG (SN J) CDG-BKK (TG F)
STOPOVER
BKK-JNB (TG Y) JNB-CPT (SA J)
DESTINATION
CPT-JNB (SA J) JNB-IST (TK J) IST-EWR (UA J)
Originally instead of the BKK-JNB coach segment I had a BKK-SIN-JNB coach segment but changed it to the nonstop this weekend when I figured I might as well be on a nonstop flight if I'm going to be in coach. The agents all said that any connection in India was not allowed. Just hoping that the BKK-JNB segment opens in J now.
#666
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: So Cal
Programs: UA Gold/0.744MM, WN AL, Hyatt Diamond, MR Scum, Hertz PC, National Exec, Avis PC
Posts: 5,561
This is what I currently have (it has been modified a bit since my original post) and they charged me 130K which seems correct as the outbound is in F:
SBN-ORD (UA Y) ORD-BRU (UA F) BRU-CDG (SN J) CDG-BKK (TG F)
STOPOVER
BKK-JNB (TG Y) JNB-CPT (SA J)
DESTINATION
CPT-JNB (SA J) JNB-IST (TK J) IST-EWR (UA J)
Originally instead of the BKK-JNB coach segment I had a BKK-SIN-JNB coach segment but changed it to the nonstop this weekend when I figured I might as well be on a nonstop flight if I'm going to be in coach. The agents all said that any connection in India was not allowed. Just hoping that the BKK-JNB segment opens in J now.
SBN-ORD (UA Y) ORD-BRU (UA F) BRU-CDG (SN J) CDG-BKK (TG F)
STOPOVER
BKK-JNB (TG Y) JNB-CPT (SA J)
DESTINATION
CPT-JNB (SA J) JNB-IST (TK J) IST-EWR (UA J)
Originally instead of the BKK-JNB coach segment I had a BKK-SIN-JNB coach segment but changed it to the nonstop this weekend when I figured I might as well be on a nonstop flight if I'm going to be in coach. The agents all said that any connection in India was not allowed. Just hoping that the BKK-JNB segment opens in J now.
As far as I can tell, your routing is actually:
SBN-ORD-BRU-CDG-BKK (destination)
BKK-JNB-CPT (stopover)
CPT-JNB-IST-EWR (OJ return)
That sounds much more like a legal/logical routing since the stopover is "in between" your origin and destination. None of this explains why you can't connect thru BOM though.
#667
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: WAS-ish
Programs: UA 1K-MM + UC, Marriott Plat, National Exec
Posts: 1,341
No worries. I have to book a US award soon, and I'm dreading going and reviewing the rules. Mostly they're just so depressing after getting used to UA's rules. Plus, even with status on US (except Chairman's) you have to pay the change/cancel fees that UA waives for Plat+. Boo. I end up searching for excuses to use my US miles up... but then it's so easy to get more!
#669
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Francisco
Programs: 1K 2.2MM
Posts: 2,352
Does SIN-SYD allow stopver in BKK?
Confused about the regions. May I stop over inBKK on the way back to SIN from SYD?
#670
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
MPM is no longer used for award routing validation. It is not getting in the way of anything.
#671
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 100
Booking strategy guidance needed
Flubbed the last award booking (for more info: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...l#post19822466), I'm hoping to rely on FT'er's expertise for this upcoming one in late Aug/early Sept (end of peak travel)
SIN-SFO (end of leg 1, aka destination), routing is SIN-LHR-SFO
SFO-MAD (stop), routing is SFO-EWR-MAD
MAD-SIN (end of leg 2), routing is MAD-FRA/ZRH-SIN
I was able to price all this out correctly online on saver economy for 65K miles (SIN-SFO-SIN), but two issues with this booking.
1) I couldn't find any saver C/BF, which is ultimately what I want.
2) Outbound routes through Europe, making the first leg 28 hours long. I'd prefer to cross the pacific, which is only 17 hours.
I've been playing around with the routings, and found saver C/BF for individual segments of the first leg (SIN-NRT-SEA-SFO). Before I spend another few hours finding availability for the remaining segments & legs (SFO-MAD-SIN), I wanted to ask if I'm on the right path? I see two approaches:
1) Book the itinerary as Saver Economy. Continue to research the segments and make those changes on the phone. (Currently 1K so award changes are free to me, I believe). I run the risk of an agent locking down my entire itinerary since they're opening up the itinerary holistically.
2) Find all segments upfront, and feed the flights & dates/times over the phone.
What do you guys think?
SIN-SFO (end of leg 1, aka destination), routing is SIN-LHR-SFO
SFO-MAD (stop), routing is SFO-EWR-MAD
MAD-SIN (end of leg 2), routing is MAD-FRA/ZRH-SIN
I was able to price all this out correctly online on saver economy for 65K miles (SIN-SFO-SIN), but two issues with this booking.
1) I couldn't find any saver C/BF, which is ultimately what I want.
2) Outbound routes through Europe, making the first leg 28 hours long. I'd prefer to cross the pacific, which is only 17 hours.
I've been playing around with the routings, and found saver C/BF for individual segments of the first leg (SIN-NRT-SEA-SFO). Before I spend another few hours finding availability for the remaining segments & legs (SFO-MAD-SIN), I wanted to ask if I'm on the right path? I see two approaches:
1) Book the itinerary as Saver Economy. Continue to research the segments and make those changes on the phone. (Currently 1K so award changes are free to me, I believe). I run the risk of an agent locking down my entire itinerary since they're opening up the itinerary holistically.
2) Find all segments upfront, and feed the flights & dates/times over the phone.
What do you guys think?
Last edited by SKYravefever; Feb 12, 2013 at 8:30 am
#672
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: WAS/NYC/LON
Programs: AA EXP, HH DIA, Hyatt DIA
Posts: 286
1) Book the itinerary as Saver Economy. Continue to research the segments and make those changes on the phone. (Currently 1K so award changes are free to me, I believe). I run the risk of an agent locking down my entire itinerary since they're opening up the itinerary holistically.
2) Find all segments upfront, and feed the flights & dates/times over the phone.
What do you guys think?
2) Find all segments upfront, and feed the flights & dates/times over the phone.
What do you guys think?
I recently booked a LAX->DEL (over Pacific), BOM->NBO, NBO->JFK(over Atlantic) and had no problems with that.
If for some reason the agent won't book it for you, I would just call back again and try with someone else.
#673
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: UA GS>1K>Nothing; DL DM 2MM; AS 75K>Nothing>MVP
Posts: 9,341
Flubbed the last award booking (for more info: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...l#post19822466), I'm hoping to rely on FT'er's expertise for this upcoming one in late Aug/early Sept (end of peak travel)
SIN-SFO (end of leg 1, aka destination), routing is SIN-LHR-SFO
SFO-MAD (stop), routing is SFO-EWR-MAD
MAD-SIN (end of leg 2), routing is MAD-FRA/ZRH-SIN
I was able to price all this out correctly online on saver economy for 65K miles (SIN-SFO-SIN), but two issues with this booking.
1) I couldn't find any saver C/BF, which is ultimately what I want.
2) Outbound routes through Europe, making the first leg 28 hours long. I'd prefer to cross the pacific, which is only 17 hours.
I've been playing around with the routings, and found saver C/BF for individual segments of the first leg (SIN-NRT-SEA-SFO). Before I spend another few hours finding availability for the remaining segments & legs (SFO-MAD-SIN), I wanted to ask if I'm on the right path? I see two approaches:
1) Book the itinerary as Saver Economy. Continue to research the segments and make those changes on the phone. (Currently 1K so award changes are free to me, I believe). I run the risk of an agent locking down my entire itinerary since they're opening up the itinerary holistically.
2) Find all segments upfront, and feed the flights & dates/times over the phone.
What do you guys think?
SIN-SFO (end of leg 1, aka destination), routing is SIN-LHR-SFO
SFO-MAD (stop), routing is SFO-EWR-MAD
MAD-SIN (end of leg 2), routing is MAD-FRA/ZRH-SIN
I was able to price all this out correctly online on saver economy for 65K miles (SIN-SFO-SIN), but two issues with this booking.
1) I couldn't find any saver C/BF, which is ultimately what I want.
2) Outbound routes through Europe, making the first leg 28 hours long. I'd prefer to cross the pacific, which is only 17 hours.
I've been playing around with the routings, and found saver C/BF for individual segments of the first leg (SIN-NRT-SEA-SFO). Before I spend another few hours finding availability for the remaining segments & legs (SFO-MAD-SIN), I wanted to ask if I'm on the right path? I see two approaches:
1) Book the itinerary as Saver Economy. Continue to research the segments and make those changes on the phone. (Currently 1K so award changes are free to me, I believe). I run the risk of an agent locking down my entire itinerary since they're opening up the itinerary holistically.
2) Find all segments upfront, and feed the flights & dates/times over the phone.
What do you guys think?
#674
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: En Route
Programs: Many
Posts: 6,798
Would this be a valid U.S. - S.Africa award with two open jaws?
IAD-JNB-MRU (stop)
open jaw
JNB-MPM (destination)
open jaw
WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-IAD
I would like to just make it IAD-JNB-MRU(stop)-MRU-JNB-MPM(Destination) open jaw WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-JFK, but that lousy MRU-JNB leg won't pop up for me.
IAD-JNB-MRU (stop)
open jaw
JNB-MPM (destination)
open jaw
WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-IAD
I would like to just make it IAD-JNB-MRU(stop)-MRU-JNB-MPM(Destination) open jaw WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-JFK, but that lousy MRU-JNB leg won't pop up for me.
#675
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
Would this be a valid U.S. - S.Africa award with two open jaws?
IAD-JNB-MRU (stop)
open jaw
JNB-MPM (destination)
open jaw
WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-IAD
I would like to just make it IAD-JNB-MRU(stop)-MRU-JNB-MPM(Destination) open jaw WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-JFK, but that lousy MRU-JNB leg won't pop up for me.
IAD-JNB-MRU (stop)
open jaw
JNB-MPM (destination)
open jaw
WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-IAD
I would like to just make it IAD-JNB-MRU(stop)-MRU-JNB-MPM(Destination) open jaw WDH-JNB-FIH-BRU-JFK, but that lousy MRU-JNB leg won't pop up for me.