HobokenFlyer

It's been so long since I have had a bad flight on CO that my experience the last few days has been almost new to me.

My company, which is a 3rd generation family owned business does several domestic and international trade shows a year. We have a vibrant business in Europe and do at least 2 trade shows there every year.

This year, we had to go to Friedrichshafen, Germany for a 5 day trade show + 1 day to visit family in Konstanz, Germany. When planning for the trip, we could have flown nonstop to ZRH or connect in FRA on LH to FDH (Friedrichshafen). We decided that it's only a 90 minute drive from ZRH and we always prefer nonstops than connecting (especially in FRA) onto a regional flight.

However, we also knew that CO had given the EWR-ZRH route to UA since earlier this year (as well as BRU); so now instead of CO operating flight, we were now on a UA operated 763.

We have 3 travelers in our party, 2 are CO Plat and I am a CO Gold. We all linked our CO OP accounts to our hardly used UA MP accounts and were all status matched to 1P on UA. (The 2 Plat/1P's will hit 1K in the next 2 weeks on planned travel). Obviously, all *G on *A. We originally booked on CO.com with a 005/CO ticket number. However, we wanted to upgrade to J, so we transferred the requisite miles to our UA accounts and contacted UA about the upgrade. They said that they would have to swap the tickets for 016/UA tickets (fare and fare class remained the same). We had a UA record locator and a CO record locator for this reservation. We had selected Economy Plus seats; 2 pax in the 2 seater and the other 1 on the aisle across the way. Though they kept our CO OP numbers as the earning FF accounts for accrual.

We arrrive at EWR at 4:15pm for our 6:35pm schedule flight. We already knew that the UA checkin at Term C in EWR was at the far end of the upper level. We were informed that the flight had a mechanical issue and the flight MIGHT be canceled. (I found out later that CO Mechanics CANNOT work on UA 767s and vice versa, UA mechanics on CO 767s). The Check-In agents said that even though the flight was not canceled yet, they would not CHECK ANYONE in for the ZRH flight. Since the BRU flight left 10 mins before the ZRH, they asked us to step out of line so that the BRU passengers could check-in. There were only 4-5 agents (2 for Y and 2-3 for J & A) behind the check-in counter and 2 agents milling in the queues. The rumor though was that the flight was officially cancelled yet was because UA was sending a 763 from IAD up to replace the plane at EWR. We figured that if they canceled 978, they would have to cancel 979 (ZRH-EWR, the next day) and they were not wont to do that, so we believed it. The flight on the boards at EWR was listed as DELAYED to 7:05p (30 min delay).

Called the UA Res # on back of my 1P UA card. Gave them my OP number (since my MP was not on the record). Got India. Called back and gave my MP #; got the 1P line and then got a US based 1P rep. I asked about re-accomodations; the only one offered was a flight to EDI to connect on BD on a ERJ145 to ZRH with a 3 hour layover. (Only middle seats available on flight to EDI). I asked about flights on CO, LH and LX to FRA, MUC, etc. They said everything had either left or was overbooked, the EDI segment was the only thing available. At this time the flight status of UA978 still said DELAYED, but moved to 10pm...we thought because they were actually sending a plane from IAD or even ORD and they delay was getting the plane, crew, etc. to EWR. It was 6:45pm.

At this point they start checking us in...I was even hopeful that some seats in J had opened up and they our slim to none shot on an upgrade was now more realistic (we were on waitlist). We checked 2 bags each, went through security and went to get a bite to eat because we still had 2.5 hrs until boarding. We finished our meal and I got a trip alert at around 7:30p that UA978 was NOW CANCELED. Shoot. Hoofed it to the large United Club in Term C.

While on line waiting for a ticket agent, I called the 1P line again and was re-booked THE NEXT DAY on a COCO flight to IAD to connect to the ZRH flight out of ZRH. We would miss the start of our trade show which was on Tuesday morning because we land around 10:30a and then rent the car and drive the 90 minutes. Not the best situation, but took it bcause it was BETTER than nothing.

Finally got to Lucille in the UC, who was absolutely excellent. She got us (after many phone calls and key clicks) on CO 114 from EWR to LHR with either a connection to LX 327 (LHR-ZRH), but a 9 hour layover (the other LX flight were all oversold) OR LX to GVA and then LX to ZRH. Got us there about 2 hours earlier, but didn't want another connection, so we opted the LX 327 option. This was better than the IAD option because we would be leaving that night and still make our show on time for Tuesday, though just arriving in ZRH 12 hours later than planned, we figured the long layover in LHR we could get a hotel and shower and sleep.

We mentioned our bags, she took our UA tags, asked another agent to go down to the ramp to find out bags and get them placed on CO 114 to LHR. After 15 minutes, the other agent returns and says they found our luggage and re-routed the bags to our current itinerary. They hand back our original UA bag tags for UA978. I asked, don't we get new ones and both of them said, that the bags have been "cross referenced" and the UA tags are fine. Now, we were on a 016/UA ticket with a UA AND CO record locator; our rebooked flights though were now on a 005/CO ticket and our boarding passes said "B0" and I pointed that out and they said the the cross reference is there it's just the CO system can't display the UA tags on the boarding passes, but they were in the system.

Since Lucille was so competent, we felt we were in good hands and were thankful for her service and felt reasonbly lucky. We headed to the gate. Unfortunately, we lost our beautiful E+ seats and were now placed in middle seats (though 1 was in Row 20, the non-reclining exit row). Exit row 21DEF was still being blocked for crew rest and Lucille called the CO International Concierge to make sure that if those seats were released to PAX that they we would get them.

We arrived at the gate. Apparently, there were several other misplaced passengers from UA978 and other flights that had been canceled. We talked to the International Concierge and he acknowledged us and that we should board with our current seats and if Row 21 would be unblocked he would notify us on the plane. We then asked the gate agent about our UA bag tags and wanted to make sure they know we were on this flight so our bags would be boarded with us. Our experience is that any carrier in the world can enter and/or scan any airlines bag tags so that they are entered on the manifest. When I showed the CO gate agent these tags, she literally "threw her hands up" and said, "I can't do anything with those". I quickly explained our situation to no avail, she said that she can't do anything with them. We had to trust that Lucille and the agents in the United Club we thorough with the bag transfer (which we still do believe). Though I thought it was unacceptible the response by a CO gate agent that looked at UA tags like they were poison to the touch; aren't these 2 going to merge?

Anyway, we board. Full flight. All seats filled except 21DEF. A couple of, obvious non frequent flyers ask the lead FA is they could sit there and the FA correctly asserted that these are premium seats and a charge was required that he could not fulfill. Flight door closed, the 2 pax in the middle seats of both exits rows JUMP into the empty 21DEF row. Bummer, I was a little annoyed. We taxi, takeoff, etc. About 20 mins into the flight, the lead FA boots them out because he was informed belatedly there was a pilot in the cockpit jump seat and wanted his crew rest seat. Felt much, better that these seats were never unblocked because they were actually being used as crew rest. Pilot comes out from the cockpit about 5 mins after the FA boots the "premium" passengers back to their middle, but still premium exit row seats. Also, on this flight, I was chatting with the lead FA while waiting for the LAV and mentioned our plight and he was the one who told me about CO mechanics can't work on UA birds, etc. He even said it's a problem at IAD where CO replaced some of the UA flights there.

Land in LHR at Terminal 4. Swiss is in Terminal 1. Walk forever to get to the transfer buses; transfer by bus to Terminal 1. Walk forever again, clear security. See *A Swiss transfer desk. Agent there (contract agent), issues us new BP's for our flight and confirms that the other earlier LX flights are still overbooked. We tell her that we want to make sure our bags that we think were loaded onto CO114 get loaded on to LX 327. She makes a phone call and says that since the flight just recently landed that they have no information yet, but to give her 30 minutes and she would check back.

In the meantime, we head over to the United Transfer desk, that is manned with actual UA employees. We tell them our tale of woe. They ask if CO 978 was canceled for weather or mechanical, we said, mechanical. We also mentioned do we get any vouchers for the INVOL, etc.? She gets us a 16GBP meal voucher each, and 2 rooms at there contracted hotel (IBIS Heathrow on Bath Road). Since LHR doesn't have free shuttle buses, we also received vouchers for the bus to the hotel. They also checked on our bags to make sure then would get transfered from Terminal 4 to Terminal 1. We also received our UA "blue cards" where we would be instructed on a website for our compensation for the mech/invol flight cancelation. We then headed to the *A lounge to get a quick drink and snack while we gave the LX agent some time to locate our bags.

After about 45-60 mins later, we go back to the LX transfer desk and a different agent was there but her colleague had informed her of our dilemma and made a few calls. She had CONFIRMED that our bags were in LHR and were making the transfer from Terminal 4 to Terminal 1 and would be loaded onto the LX 327 flight at 6:40pm (now 12:30pm). NOTE: FORESHADOWING...We said are you sure, and she said yes. I said well the proof in the pudding is when we see our bags in ZRH and we both laughed. It's almost like both people re-affirming their belief in Santa Claus, even though they both know they don't exist. Since neither of us had physically seen our bags, we were both going on what people had told us.

We then headed to the shuttle pickup; cleared UK immigration and headed to pickup. After waiting 30 minutes for the shuttle, got to hotel about 1 hour after leaving the *A lounge, got the rooms, showered had a meal. The Ibis brand in Europe is like a business traveler oriented Motel 6 (it is an Accor hotel); clean, but spartan, though free Wifi and 24/7 meal service. However, as a *G I would have hoped for something nicer. But we were just thrilled to have a place to change and sleep a little.

Got back to Terminal 1 on the shuttle around 5:15pm. Cleared security, went back to the LX transfer desk. Same agent as before, re-iterated that the bags WILL be on LX 327. Went to the lounge again for a quick drink and snack waiting for our gate to be declared. Gate 45 (I think, really can't remember), all I know it was the LAST GATE...figured, we have been walking all over creation at LHR and so nothing is new. The boarding process for LX 327 is quite interesting and is very culutral. They actually scan your boarding passes before they even open the flight and put you in the "holding pen", they tear off the main part and give you the "stub". You then wait for them to open the flight and begin boarding. They said the flight was full and they would only be boarding my rows...they call row 16 and higher (we were 16ABC). We go up to the entrace to the jet way and there is NO agent checking anything and there was NO MOB scene; only people in Rows 16 and higher ACTUALLY boarded. Rows 16 and lower actually stayed in their seats. Try that in some other countries or some other airlines, but I digress. The LX 327 flight was smooth and easy. Swiss chocolate, small decent sized sandwich and choice of drinks including Heineken.
Arrive in ZRH. Hard stand. Dang. Down the stairs and on the bus. Now, here is the wrinkle to the story. Our trade show is in Friedrichshafen, Germany. This is a "see-side" town ("see" is lake in German). It's high season is in the summer, but they have a very large Messe (fair grounds) for tradeshows and the reason why Friedrichshafen even has an airport because it was the place where Ferdinand von Zeppelin invented his airship and Zeppelin (the company) still has their offices there. Anyway, I digress. The hotels here are very small and there reception desk for our hotel (which is a Best Western by the way) CLOSES at midnight. We landed at 9:15pm. After the busing, we get to the baggage claim at 9:45pm. We wait 15 minutes NO BAGS. We go to *A/Swiss/Swissport baggage office. We make our claim. It is now 10:15pm.

We head over to Sixt, get out car. It's now 10:45pm; it's 90 minutes to our Hotel via Schaffhausen (normall you go to Konstanz and take the ferry, but after 11pm it only runs every hour). Unlike Germany, you have strictly enforced speed limits on the highways in Switzerland. Unfortunately in my haste, I know we got caught by a speed camera coming out of the tunnel (I lost track of my speed, to be honest, I was just trying to STAY AWAKE!). Moving on. We get to Friedrichshafen Altstadt where the hotel is located at 12:03 am; but since it is in the pedestrian zone (which is not open to cars) the hotel was difficult to find. We finally find it at 12:15am and luckily the desk agent stayed and waited for us (we called ahead, but that was hours ago in LHR). Of course, their small private parking lot was filled, their backup municipal garage was CLOSED at midnight and had to park about 700m away behind a gas station.
Got to bed around 2am local time (early TUESDAY morning) after leaving my home around 4pm EDT on SUNDAY...28 hours later and easily about 12-13 hours behind scheudle...show open at 9am!

Now, we are hoping that our bags would be on the first LX flight from LHR. In our bags, is not only our clothes for the 7 night trip we have planned, but 2 small suitcases that have our "show and tells" that we put in glass cases to display at the show. Since our display graphics were already in Germany from a previous show in May, this was the only item we had that related to the show (we need them at shows in the USA we had in between). We are also lucky that our Germany sales agent and US based sales manager had arrived earlier and setup the booth for us. Well, we go to the Messe (fairgrounds) in the same clothes Tuesday morning, no "show and tells" and call Swiss baggage in the morning (note: before UA 978 that lands on Tuesday had arrived) . We were informed that our bags were in NEWARK and were not arriving until Wednesday on UA 978. Argh!!! Didn't bother to call again until Wed morning.

We went shopping and bought some underwear, socks, shirts toiletries, etc. at C&A. So we would finally have some clean clothes. Wed morning comes; I call Swiss baggage. FIVE bags have arrived in ZRH and 1 bag was still missing. SIGH. This time I check the website, The info on the one missing bag is that it's on LX 317 from HEATHROW to ZRH; will arrive at 11:30am. Call Swiss Baggage back. I say, "Five bags arrived today (Wed 10/19) on UA 978 from EWR and 1 is coming on LX from LHR today, right". She replied, "No. 4 bags arrived YESTERDAY (Tue 10/18) into ZRH and were handed over to the delivery company; 1 arrived today (Wed 10/19) and 1 coming from LHR on LX 317 today, but has not landed". I know we are 90 mins from ZRH, but WHY DIDN'T they deliver our 4 bags YESTERDAY!!!!!! Ugh. LX 317 just landed 30 minutes ago...have to call to make sure they have all 6 AND the delivery company will make the DELIVERY TODAY!!!! We believe that 4 bags never left EWR; 2 bags went to LHR; of the 2 LHR bags, 1 got sent back to EWR (or maybe never left EWR and just didn't get on the Monday, 10/17 UA978 like the other 4 bags) and 1 had an extended stay in LHR...we really have to idea what happened.

My story is not over....but just wanted the FT community to know that even though Mr. Smisek is making it sound in his pre-flight message that they are working hard to integrate...they are NOT integrated enough in our opinion. To the mixed messages about the flight, the prevention of checkin (where at least we could have gone to United Club and work out other options or AT LEAST get a drink!), the lack of UA mechanics on site for such premium routes to ZRH and BRU; the CO gate agents looking at UA bag tags with disgust, the UA phone agents not looking at non-UA/CO options even though they have a revenue sharing agreement with LH/LX and not noticing flights through LHR leaving the same night as our canceled flight; this whole debacle of a trip to ZRH is testament that BUYER BEWARE on any UA International flights from CO hubs. The only saving grace was the Lucille in the United Club got us an itinerary that at least allowed not to be late for our trade show.

We are loyal CO flyers and this was out FIRST UA flight and it was a disaster!!! Not a good first impression. BTW, saving my receipts for the clothes and toiletries bought in Germany and UA will be definitely getting a claim on these items (about 300 euros total for the 3 of us). We did also redeem our "blue cards"...$200 e-certs each.
Stay tuned...

HobokenFlyer

axl

I'm based in DCA and fly this trip quite often. I've never had it cancel, but we have had several delays that were exacerbated by the fact that the mechanics, planes, and crews aren't interchangeable. THIS is one major thing that will get fixed once UCH negotiates a Joint contract with the pilots and mechanics. I completely understand the passengers frustration when you are sitting at a FORTRESS HUB of the airline whose ticket you hold, yet there is only ONE plane, crew, and maintenance team to support your flight! Talk about a shallow bench...
When they get in a bind, they will ask for the employees to 'take one for the team' and bail them out. This involves waiving the contract. Some will do it, but I will NOT. On a recent fligth we had an engine air bleed problem and had to return to the gate. Since there we ZERO mechanics at EWR that could run the engine on a 767 300 they asked the pilots to do a maintenance troubleshooting engine run -- I opted to not bail them out. Again, a contract negotiated in good faith will solve all of these problems. I will do this very same flight a couple of more times at the end of Oct and mid Nov. They will once again roll the dice and hope nothing goes wrong with the plane that requires me to waive my contract....
FWIW, a large and growing segment of the UAL pilots are coming around to the same 'place' that I'm in. We are watching our flying erode while CAL is growing. After 31Dec11, UCH will be free to park UA planes, close UA pilot domicles, and furlough UA pilots. Will they really do it? I know it doesn't make sense to do any of those things, but my experience this past decades shows that they will ALWAYS take the route most painful to the pilots. There is a very real possibility of UA parking 757s (up to 30) in the coming year. Is it any surprise that I'm not interested in 'taking one for the team'??

Sorry for a bit of a rant, but I wanted to be realistic about what anyone will face when trying to fly on these 'cross fleet' routes.

FWIW, I'm not punishing, or doing anything to target the passengers -- what I'm doing is protecting my career (cough, cough, gacckkkk...)

ORD-LIH

Thanks for posting your story. My two worst experiences in the last decade with an airline were both UA 016 international tickets booked on CO EWR-LHR flights. I was actually IDB'd out of a paid C seat for one of them. Crazy. I 100% refuse to fly a cross fleeted flight now.

Unfortunately, your take-away is a common one these days and is a result of marketing/branding integration when, in fact, no important integration measure (namely contracts and operating systems) has been completed. Mergers have growing pains. This one seems to have more than its fair share.

Safe travels for the balance of your trip! I hope the compensation you get for the mx dulls the pain a little.

channa

Ugh, the cross-fleeted flights. Had this been UA at IAD, I'm sure they would've found another aircraft and kept you going, albeit late. Same had this been a CO flight out of EWR.

Thanks for the reminder to aviod cross-fleeted flights whenever possible.

Worth noting that these sorts of issues may continue post merger. I remember that after DL and NW was "fully" integrated, scheduling started mixing up aircraft, and the legacy NW mechanics weren't fully trained on the DL planes yet (and vice versa) which caused problems.

cyclogenesis

Again my thoughts turn to the long term impacts of this, surely it would have been wise to spend some $$ up front and do the integration properly and properly stage it... ie get back of house working first before bothering to spend $$ on a uniform paint job and United Club signage!

ORD-LIH

SMI/J has no mandate to spend money up front. He needs margin expansion up-front to justify the merger, then they can make cap-ex decisions... maybe...

Say Vandelay

It doesn't sound like you missed much on the EWR-ZRH UA 763 http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...r-service.html

joshwex90

Why can't they take a CO 767 to replace the UA 763? Until they get a single operating certificate, is that illegal?

And why can't the check-in for the 2 UA flights (ZRH and BRU,) be integrated with the regular CO check-in, such as the eliteAccess line?

Sprezzatura

And who is it that pays your salary? Those passengers that you're screwing over.

ORD-LIH

Let's not make this a labor-related thread. The man has a contract, let collective bargaining determine these things.

I noted that you failed to address his relevant point, which is that the cross-fleeting causes massive headaches due to a host of issues (of which labor restrictions is one). As was the point of the OP's post. It heralds sound advice: avoid cross-fleeted flights if you can, especially long-hauls that are unlikely to have numerous easy re-route options.

jgcii

My take away was that this union member wanted a new contract "negotiated in good faith". My translation of last is: We want a boat load of money and bennies.

I understand someone who works under contract. However, if they were actually employees in a right-to-work state this situation would not occur as they would be required to "take one for the team" or be fired.

HobokenFlyer

‎68 hours after we tagged them at EWR and almost 48 hours after we landed in ZRH our bags (all of them) have finally joined us! Oh happy day!

I was aware of the thread, but I thought my story deserved its own headline...if the mods think they should be merged...go right ahead.

- HF

axl

I am not screwing anyone over. The 'who pays your salary' question has been beaten to death on this forum, so I won't go there. The real question you should ask is WHY UCH has put all of us in the predicament where there are no backup options? IMO they have seriously miscalculated if they are counting on the employees to go above and beyond, or if they're counting on the passengers to be tolerant and understanding. If you are sitting on a broken 767 in EWR (with dozens of other aircraft capable of substituting) and you are counting on the pilots (or flight attendants) waiving their contract in order to avoid a cancellation....and you choose to think it is ME who has screwed you over, then there is nothing I can say. I suggest that it is UCH, and their poor decisions, that has screwed you over.

Was this intended to add something to the thread? If so, it failed.

I'm not turning this into a labor/mgmt relations thread -- I only attempted to highlight the fact that these 'cross fleet' operations are more apt to disruption than the flights they are replacing.

For example, at IAD if the ZRH flight has a mechanical issue, there are multiple 767s that can swap in and keep the flight on time. A common solution is to take the late departing 767s (ACC or FRA) and move them into an earlier departure while working on the broken plane. It is often fixed by scheduled ACC/FRA departure times. Also, there is normally at least one 767 that spends the night at IAD that can swap into the late departure if the other isn't repaired. This 'defense in depth' doesn't exist in a one plane/one crew/limited mx operation such as EWR-ZRH, EWR-BRU, or IAD-CDG, IAH-LIM, etc... The only reason the contract negotiations came into the discussion is that the constant delay and lack of good faith negotiations on the part of the company have created an environment that makes it less likely for the employees to do 'extra' for the company. And yes, it is doing extra for the COMPANY. They are only cross fleeting because they are increasing revenue...are they sharing it with you or me?

The fact that the CO mechanics can't work on our planes or vice versa is problematic. I honestly don't know why this is the case since we use contract maintenance at outstations??? At any rate, it appears to be the case in EWR and IAH. Maintenance technicians should do maintenance engines runs -- not me. If they don't have anyone qualified, that's not your or my fault, they are trying to save a dime at both of our expense. They could easily add that capability if they chose.

You also have the issue of crews. New York based UA 767 pilots are not international qualified, so they can't act as reserves. If the company needs a pilot, they are required to use one from another domicile (typically DCA). Our scheduling rules require the pilot to layover in NY/NJ the night prior to flying, so there is not ability to contractually fill a seat on short notice. This IS an issue. I've flown this trip 5 times and it almost caused a problem twice. In one case, the other First Officers wife (in SC) was having a CT scan done as we were driving to the airport. This was a short notice test and had the potential to uncover a very bad medical condition. Needless to say, he wasn't going to leave for ZRH until he heard the that test was negative! The odds were that he wouldn't be going, but the test was indeed negative and we left on time. On my last trip, the other First Officer spent the layover in ZRH and the flight from ZRH to EWR sniffling and coughing. He notified them that he was going on sick list on the flight to EWR and they were able to get a reserve up from DCA that afternoon for a legal layover. Also, on a recent flight we returned to the gate in EWR because a FA was having chest pains. Fortunately we were over the minimum number of FAs and were able to depart. Obviously, these crew issues are a non player at IAD (for UA crews) and EWR (for CO crews). Integrated seniority lists will solve these problems. The integrated seniority lists will only come after joint contracts.

Clear as mud I'm sure.

jgcii

Pont taken.

CMK10

What an awful story. I don't usually read through posts that long but I met you at an FT dinner about 8 years ago so I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt The sad part is that you did everything right, your complaints are legitimate and yet everything went wrong. Well, not everything, you did earn more miles this way, right?