Jun 30, 2013, 2:46 pm
CO/UA Million Mile (and Beyond) Flyer Benefits, Effective Spring 2012
Apr 8, 2012, 12:55 pm
#3991
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
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In an earlier post I quoted a portion of Federal Trade Commission - § 239.4 in connection with the use of the word "lifetime" in advertising.
As many of us know, the new UA management uses a definition for the word "lifetime" that conflicts with federal law, with a dictionary definition and how must of us would define the word (and how we interpreted the word when we read it on united.com).
For those who want to see examples and the full text of the citation, it can be found at this site:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...+refers.&btnG=
Maybe, just maybe, after the new UA management learns of this citation, it will reconsider its unorthodox stance and it will rescind the announced demotions made to the million-mile program.
It not, the new UA management will only cause more damage to the reputation of UA due to their knowing, intentional and willful disregard of federal rules and regulations
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In an earlier post I quoted a portion of Federal Trade Commission - § 239.4 in connection with the use of the word "lifetime" in advertising.
As many of us know, the new UA management uses a definition for the word "lifetime" that conflicts with federal law, with a dictionary definition and how must of us would define the word (and how we interpreted the word when we read it on united.com).
For those who want to see examples and the full text of the citation, it can be found at this site:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...+refers.&btnG=
Maybe, just maybe, after the new UA management learns of this citation, it will reconsider its unorthodox stance and it will rescind the announced demotions made to the million-mile program.
It not, the new UA management will only cause more damage to the reputation of UA due to their knowing, intentional and willful disregard of federal rules and regulations
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It doesn't contradict as I pointed out above, also even if you're right the argument still fails for the reason above.
Apr 8, 2012, 12:59 pm
#3992
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near SEA
Programs: UA MM, AS MVPG75K, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,969
Apr 8, 2012, 1:32 pm
#3993
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,489
Thanks. ^ Again, there can be significant differences between "what's legal" and "what's moral." I have IMO a common-sense understanding of the meaning of "lifetime benefits." When laws support common sense, so much the better.
Apr 8, 2012, 2:46 pm
#3994
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,358
I never agreed to have UA violate federal law and rescind "lifetime" benefits that I believed (after reading united.com web site) would remain available after I reached one-million miles on UA, BIS.
We had no choice but to tacitly agree that the frequent flier program could change, from time-to-time. However, we did not agree that UA could take away written earned promised "lifetime" benefits.
At no time did I authorize the "lifetime" benefits that I earned by spending money with UA and spending countless hours in a UA aircraft, be rescinded in whole or in part.
Shame on UA for disregarding the loyalty many of us showed to the company for many years. Shame on the new UA management for their intentional disregard for federal laws concerning advertisements on united.com in connection with "lifetime" benefits previously announced for the million-mile program.
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Apr 9, 2012, 6:24 pm
#3995
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SoCal
Programs: AA Plat, UA Gold Million Miler, SPG Lifetime Plat
Posts: 76
Quotes from Glen Tilton, as CEO of United Air Lines...
From the 2007 book Strategic Management: Competitiveness and Globalization...
"in addition to our finance rationalization, we will be utilizing more fully our core competencies - the unparalleled route network, our strong alliance, and our best-in-market frequent flyer program - so as to put United back among the leading global air carriers."
From the CNBC Interview May 3, 2010 (with Jeff Smisek)...
Question from CNBC's Phil Lebeau: "We've already had people outside, somebody stopped me on the street and said, what happens to my frequent flyer miles. Does anything change at all?"
Tilton: "It just gets better. We're going to have the largest loyalty program in the world here. And if you're an elite on United, or elite on us, you'll be an elite on the combined carrier. There will be more options to redeem miles and earn miles. It will be better for the customer."
So lets understand this. United had the best FF program, "best in market", then they merged it with something less than best (CO), but, the outcome is "it just gets better", "better for the customer". Oh that's right, the customer - that's us, and we know now how much better it got, with broken commitments thrown in for good measure!
Tilton clearly states that having the "best in market" FF program (which has to do with LOYALTY) was a key to putting United back among the leading global airlines. If that was good advice in 2007, they might want to revisit that in 2012.
Customer satisfaction means nothing. Customer LOYALTY means EVERYTHING!
http://www.millionmilersunited.com/
"in addition to our finance rationalization, we will be utilizing more fully our core competencies - the unparalleled route network, our strong alliance, and our best-in-market frequent flyer program - so as to put United back among the leading global air carriers."
From the CNBC Interview May 3, 2010 (with Jeff Smisek)...
Question from CNBC's Phil Lebeau: "We've already had people outside, somebody stopped me on the street and said, what happens to my frequent flyer miles. Does anything change at all?"
Tilton: "It just gets better. We're going to have the largest loyalty program in the world here. And if you're an elite on United, or elite on us, you'll be an elite on the combined carrier. There will be more options to redeem miles and earn miles. It will be better for the customer."
So lets understand this. United had the best FF program, "best in market", then they merged it with something less than best (CO), but, the outcome is "it just gets better", "better for the customer". Oh that's right, the customer - that's us, and we know now how much better it got, with broken commitments thrown in for good measure!
Tilton clearly states that having the "best in market" FF program (which has to do with LOYALTY) was a key to putting United back among the leading global airlines. If that was good advice in 2007, they might want to revisit that in 2012.
Customer satisfaction means nothing. Customer LOYALTY means EVERYTHING!
http://www.millionmilersunited.com/
Apr 9, 2012, 7:25 pm
#3996
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,489
So lets understand this. United had the best FF program, "best in market", then they merged it with something less than best (CO), but, the outcome is "it just gets better", "better for the customer". Oh that's right, the customer - that's us, and we know now how much better it got, with broken commitments thrown in for good measure!
He, like other executives we met along the way, including the president of LH, made us feel valued.
What a loyalty program Graham and his team built. As one travel blogger put it, he listened. IMO building, maintaining, and enhancing any program is a challenge, speaking only from my own humble experiences in public education.
OTOH destroying a program is ridiculously easy.
Maybe it's time for me to start shopping Walgreens.
Apr 9, 2012, 8:53 pm
#3997
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sunny SYDNEY!
Programs: UA Million Miler. (1.9M) Virgin Platinum. HH Diamond + SPG Gold
Posts: 32,330
I'm curious why so many people take the phrase lifetime to mean till death do you part. Lifetime is how long the benefit lasts. It no longet lasts. It is done. Finished. The lifetime is over.
But, how come out of 4,000 posts there has been no tangible action for so many people that think lifetime means until death do you part.
Forget the we can change the program part - your definition of lifetime doesn't match UA's definition - which is lifetime until the benefit changes.
I disagree. THIS was United's own promise to MM a few months back.
They wrote it - not me. Not years back, not decades back, but MONTHS back on their own website.
For Life - means FOR LIFE.
If folks like me who spent $100,000s with this airline cannot trust this simple unambiguous statement below, they clearly cannot trust one word they say or write.
"Information about the MileagePlus program published through united.com is the final authority with respect to the terms and conditions of membership in MileagePlus - - - -."
Phew, well I am glad it was on United.com, which we are now told is "L-A-W ... LAW" for such policy .. so when do we get the clearly promised 2 x CR1s for 2012 Mr Foland?
Apr 9, 2012, 9:45 pm
#3998
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SoCal
Programs: AA Plat, UA Gold Million Miler, SPG Lifetime Plat
Posts: 76
The Revolving Door...
http://blog.frequentflier.com/2012/0...-match-it.html
"Throughout 2012, MileagePlus members with elite status from another airline can enjoy equivalent status with United for three months and retain that status for the rest of 2012."
Well, I guess while they're losing their Million Milers to other airlines they are investing their efforts to replace them from other airlines.
Nothing wrong with trying to take the other guy's customers, but most business schools would teach that you would first keep the ones you've got, especially the lucrative ones - yes that would be the Million Milers, who happen to be staying away right now!
Customer satisfaction means nothing. Customer LOYALTY means EVERYTHING!
http://www.millionmilersunited.com/
"Throughout 2012, MileagePlus members with elite status from another airline can enjoy equivalent status with United for three months and retain that status for the rest of 2012."
Well, I guess while they're losing their Million Milers to other airlines they are investing their efforts to replace them from other airlines.
Nothing wrong with trying to take the other guy's customers, but most business schools would teach that you would first keep the ones you've got, especially the lucrative ones - yes that would be the Million Milers, who happen to be staying away right now!
Customer satisfaction means nothing. Customer LOYALTY means EVERYTHING!
http://www.millionmilersunited.com/
Last edited by Ukalien; Apr 9, 2012 at 10:15 pm
Apr 9, 2012, 10:03 pm
#3999
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 75
Had to share this one . . . I spoke with a 1 Million Mile Flyer the other day and asked what he thought of the new MP program. He said his wife (who travels once or twice a year) has been enjoying her new Premier Gold benefits on UA but he is now traveling on other airlines.
So thanks to the new MP program, UA has traded in a loyal customer who used to regularly fly 80,000+ miles a year on business fares for a customer who travels once or twice a year on the lowest published fare.
It would appear UA's new business strategy is to exchange customers who bring in $40K a year in revenue for customers who bring in $400.
"We lose $39,600 per customer, but we make it up in volume!"
So thanks to the new MP program, UA has traded in a loyal customer who used to regularly fly 80,000+ miles a year on business fares for a customer who travels once or twice a year on the lowest published fare.
It would appear UA's new business strategy is to exchange customers who bring in $40K a year in revenue for customers who bring in $400.
"We lose $39,600 per customer, but we make it up in volume!"
Apr 9, 2012, 10:55 pm
#4000
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,358
http://blog.frequentflier.com/2012/0...-match-it.html
"Throughout 2012, MileagePlus members with elite status from another airline can enjoy equivalent status with United for three months and retain that status for the rest of 2012."
Well, I guess while they're losing their Million Milers to other airlines they are investing their efforts to replace them from other airlines.
Nothing wrong with trying to take the other guy's customers, but most business schools would teach that you would first keep the ones you've got, especially the lucrative ones - yes that would be the Million Milers, who happen to be staying away right now!
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"Throughout 2012, MileagePlus members with elite status from another airline can enjoy equivalent status with United for three months and retain that status for the rest of 2012."
Well, I guess while they're losing their Million Milers to other airlines they are investing their efforts to replace them from other airlines.
Nothing wrong with trying to take the other guy's customers, but most business schools would teach that you would first keep the ones you've got, especially the lucrative ones - yes that would be the Million Milers, who happen to be staying away right now!
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Had to share this one . . . I spoke with a 1 Million Mile Flyer the other day and asked what he thought of the new MP program. He said his wife (who travels once or twice a year) has been enjoying her new Premier Gold benefits on UA but he is now traveling on other airlines.
So thanks to the new MP program, UA has traded in a loyal customer who used to regularly fly 80,000+ miles a year on business fares for a customer who travels once or twice a year on the lowest published fare.
It would appear UA's new business strategy is to exchange customers who bring in $40K a year in revenue for customers who bring in $400.
"We lose $39,600 per customer, but we make it up in volume!"
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If we did not know better, we would have good cause to believe that the new UA management had moved its headquarters from Houston to Chicago into an insane asylum.
The new UA management appears to be operating the airline as inmates, rather than knowledgeable executives with insight and managerial qualities.
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Apr 9, 2012, 11:03 pm
#4001
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 10,909
Had to share this one . . . I spoke with a 1 Million Mile Flyer the other day and asked what he thought of the new MP program. He said his wife (who travels once or twice a year) has been enjoying her new Premier Gold benefits on UA but he is now traveling on other airlines.
So thanks to the new MP program, UA has traded in a loyal customer who used to regularly fly 80,000+ miles a year on business fares for a customer who travels once or twice a year on the lowest published fare.
It would appear UA's new business strategy is to exchange customers who bring in $40K a year in revenue for customers who bring in $400.
"We lose $39,600 per customer, but we make it up in volume!"
So thanks to the new MP program, UA has traded in a loyal customer who used to regularly fly 80,000+ miles a year on business fares for a customer who travels once or twice a year on the lowest published fare.
It would appear UA's new business strategy is to exchange customers who bring in $40K a year in revenue for customers who bring in $400.
"We lose $39,600 per customer, but we make it up in volume!"
Apr 9, 2012, 11:05 pm
#4002
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: IAH
Programs: *AG, Choice Privileges Elite Diamond, SPG Gold, La Quinta Returns Gold, Wyndham Rewards Gold
Posts: 466
Smisek is really Willy Wonka!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MifmLeNxTQ
What? You were a pmUA Million Mile member? And you still want the same benefits as before?
"It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal.....You get nothing! You Lose! Good day, Sir!"
What? You were a pmUA Million Mile member? And you still want the same benefits as before?
"It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal.....You get nothing! You Lose! Good day, Sir!"
Apr 9, 2012, 11:24 pm
#4003
Join Date: May 2004
Programs: UA lifetime 1K
Posts: 2,033
But that's not the real problem here. The beef with UA is over a promised lifetime benefit (the CR1's) being replaced with an alternative lifetime benefit (the companion Gold). Any reductions in benefits to Premier Gold status from those of pmUA 1P would have to be specific to only the MMers to be germane. Since the Gold still delivers the *G status, debate as to whether 1P "should" map to Gold or Platinum is mostly specious.
By a couple different paths, the value of a year of Premier Gold can be placed at more than $1000. It's hard to see how, in general, there would be much harm arising from that substitution, especially now since the eligible companion definition has been expanded.
That's why I keep repeating my opinion that the real harm here is to UA's goodwill: poster after poster has stated they don't trust the management. When the changes to the companion definitions appeared (first reported here by Fredd), I thought: this has attorney authorship written all over it. That would be about as stupid a thing as would be possible: defend yourself against legal challenge by enhancing the value of the companion Gold benefit, when the smart thing to do would be just give 'em a choice of the damned certificates and put the issue to bed.
It defies understanding.
Apr 9, 2012, 11:46 pm
#4004
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,358
Did you overlook this post, up thread? -
Title 16 - Commercial Practices - Code of Federal Regulations:
§ 239.4 “Lifetime” and similar representations.
If an advertisement uses “lifetime,” “life,” or similar representations to describe the duration of a warranty or guarantee, then the advertisement should disclose, with such clarity and prominence as will be noticed and understood by prospective purchasers, the life to which the representation refers.
___________
The above refers to all types of advertising, including benefits offered as an inducement to fly an airline.
But that's not the real problem here. The beef with UA is over a promised lifetime benefit (the CR1's) being replaced with an alternative lifetime benefit (the companion Gold).
snip snip
That's why I keep repeating my opinion that the real harm here is to UA's goodwill: poster after poster has stated they don't trust the management. When the changes to the companion definitions appeared (first reported here by Fredd),
snip snip
- - - when the smart thing to do would be just give 'em a choice of the damned certificates and put the issue to bed.
It defies understanding.
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Apr 9, 2012, 11:54 pm
#4005
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ORD
Programs: UA 1K/MM, MC Life Plat, HH Gold
Posts: 722
But that's not the real problem here. The beef with UA is over a promised lifetime benefit (the CR1's) being replaced with an alternative lifetime benefit (the companion Gold). Any reductions in benefits to Premier Gold status from those of pmUA 1P would have to be specific to only the MMers to be germane. Since the Gold still delivers the *G status, debate as to whether 1P "should" map to Gold or Platinum is mostly specious.
By a couple different paths, the value of a year of Premier Gold can be placed at more than $1000. It's hard to see how, in general, there would be much harm arising from that substitution, especially now since the eligible companion definition has been expanded.
That's why I keep repeating my opinion that the real harm here is to UA's goodwill: poster after poster has stated they don't trust the management. When the changes to the companion definitions appeared (first reported here by Fredd), I thought: this has attorney authorship written all over it. That would be about as stupid a thing as would be possible: defend yourself against legal challenge by enhancing the value of the companion Gold benefit, when the smart thing to do would be just give 'em a choice of the damned certificates and put the issue to bed.
It defies understanding.