Fredd

Some say that the CO IEs banded together well in advance to lobby for their cause, and that both Gordon Bethune and Randy Petersen advocated for them.

In contrast (and perhaps in our own defense), I think those of us who were PMUA Million Mile Flyers were blindsided by UA's breaking the lifetime promises it had made.

jetsetr

And to put an even more fine point on it, for the sake of focus, it would be interesting to know the number of pre-12/31/2011 legacy MMers (both PMUA and PMCO) who were between 1MM and 2MM, since that is the collective group that experienced a downgrade of benefits and the loss of the lifetime United Club membership goal at the 2MM mark. Note, this does not mean that I am unsympathetic to those who were "on the outside looking in" and were "within range" of the 1MM threshold, nor am I making an argument either way that they, too, should be grandfathered; I'm simply trying to better understand the size of the population in question.

And in case anyone is interested in the relative number of likely remaining IEs, the population is small and dwindling. From a 2006 post by UA Insider (at the time, Scott, not Shannon):

Given that this post was written almost six years ago, you can easily imagine how much smaller the IE population has dwindled, to say nothing of the proportion of the population that is actually still flying (and if they're not flying, they're not consuming any benefits).


CO was in deep trouble. It was in its second visit to Chapter 11, its product was lousy, and its route structure relatively weak. So they offered a program whereby if one flew five (5) years at top-level elite, one would be granted top level for life. "Top level" fluctuated from 70K to 60K to 50K to 75K, so at the extreme case, during a very limited window, it was possible for one to qualify for IE by flying 50K for 5 consecutive years.

But I want to emphasize the extreme risk folks were taking in investing time and money to fly with CO at that time. There was absolutely no guarantee, and in fact very little confidence that the airline would emerge and survive as a revenue-positive, ongoing concern. Those who took the gamble on CO back then risked a lot, and in one sense, now reap lucrative benefits as a result.


As I've mentioned before, I think a major challenge from the UA perspective is that the population of MMers can only grow, and thus future benefits can be seen as a "defined benefit pension plan," with escalating costs over time that can consume and crowd out revenue generating opportunities. Juxtapose that population against the fixed and declining population of IEs, which can be seen as a "fixed rate mortgage," in that when the last IE no longer flies, no further benefits are accrued and owed.

But the above notwithstanding, that doesn't mean that I believe that PMUA and PMCO MMers shouldn't be grandfathered in some way.

Completely agree.

Indeed. My industry analyst friend believes (and I agree) that legacy carriers will move to a "hybrid" model that combines miles flown and money spent (we already see signs of this today) to value loyalty and Premier/elite qualification. In fact, as Lucky said in his infamous blog post last fall 2011, UA had placed this idea on the table very early on in the discussion process (and FWIW, a UA rep confirmed this to me at last fall's SMD3 event).


I think part of the answer to this question resides in my answer above about "fixed rate mortgages vs. defined benefit pension."

UrbaneGent

Beautifully said.

kokonutz

Well how nice for them.

Interesting.

I guess that might explain some of the ponderous cheer leading we see going on these days. A bit of a quid pro quo by those whose back was scratched as a knife was slid into others?

UrbaneGent

I'm happy this thread is getting an upgrade in brainpower. This was brilliantly stated. Monsieur kokonutz your handle name is hilarious, I love it!

I also remember a time when United was in bankruptcy and was reading about United folding and to cash out my miles ASAP. I remember when f/a's wore the "United will stand United" pins and actually booking as much travel as possible to show support.

Yours,

UG

Sidenote: if a frequent flyer wasn't so profitable CO wouldn't have promised such benefits.

kokonutz

Many of us stuck with United Airlines through the Summer From Hell labor unrest, through Greenwald Must Go, through the bankruptcy.

We earned our MM status by keeping our butts on United Airlines metal in spite of the bad times.

If lobbying by the former CEO, Randy Peterson and CO elites got certain CO elites grandfathered while leaving United Airlines Million Milers out in the cold, then good for them but shame, shame, shame on UNITED.

And if those grandfathered CO elites are the ones cheer leading for UNITED today, well, how about showing some class and stowing it?

Craig6z

Amen, koko!

It took me nineteen years of sitting on United tin to achieve MM. During that time they surely got in excess of $120,000 in revenue. Four of those years I was a 1K.

My loyalty should have breeded return in kind.

UrbaneGent

Hello Monsieur Craig6z! Great to hear from you! We need more MMilers to speak up like yourself.

You were a long haul PMUA MMiler and got there the long hard way like the rest of us!

UG

dgcpaphd

You are talking about what SHOULD have occurred (loyalty).

Considering the current attitude and behavior of the new UA management, you, I and other customers mean nothing to UA unless we are purchasing a ticket at the very moment the new UA is aware of us. Following our ticket purchase, we resume our role as "nothing," in the eyes of the new UA management.

Any loyalty we earned with the old UA, was demolished by the new UA wrecking crew, aka, the new UA management.

There is something terribly wrong when a formerly happy customer base is converted into an apparently enormous group of angry customers, many of whom have expressed their intention to defect from UA to other air carriers.

We must ask the question, why does the new UA management make no effort to attempt to resolve the business emergency that THEY created by their obvious disdain and mistreatment of loyal UA customers?
-

xFF

Not only is that myopia patently wrong, it is, to me at least, personally offensive.

Every IE who has posted to this thread -including myself- has done nothing but express recognition of the inequity of, and be supportive of the efforts to amend, the decisions made concerning the UA MM fliers.

This recurring resentment makes me wonder why I even bother.

jetsetr

Some may be cheering. Others may be trying to point out weaknesses in arguments so that they may be strengthened. Personally, I've been trying to help formulate thinking around economic arguments that could be logically presented.

Well, back then, in CO's case, it may not have been so much that frequent fliers were all "so profitable," but more that they didn't want customers to flee...much like AA is acting today with its six month long 2x EQM promos for CA/IL/TX residents.

I'm not sure that IEs are cheer leading for United (though we are grateful that they heard us). Personally, the reason I stand with those legacy MMers whose benefits have been reduced due to demotions at all Premier levels is because it's not hard to imagine that IEs could have been in the same boat. I stand with you because I believe we are all better off united (seriously, no pun intended) rather than if we argue amongst ourselves. Which is why I believe it is wasted effort to have any internecine squabbles between IEs and so-called "real MM fliers," which frankly I find to be an unnecessarily divisive term.

I'm in no way saying that your loyalty shouldn't be returned in kind. But just to point out that an average annual spend of ~$6300, while much higher than an average traveler's spend, is in the grand scheme of things not that significant. Rather, I would argue that the mentality you displayed in showing deference to UA, in the aggregate with those like you, is ultimately what matters more in the long run when measuring economic impact.

UrbaneGent

It's all relative of course. I've stated before my 1K GS cost me about $70K a year on average for 15 years (up to when I became a MMiler in 2008). Sometimes it was more some years less. So to some, their MMiler cost $120K and others $1million. I'm wondering though how one could fly for $6,300 a year unless MMiler was obtained by segments than BIS. Could you become MMiler by segments alone? I don't remember.

$120K seems like a low number to get to MMiler status. But then again, if you get the really good fares it obviously can be done, since it was. Maybe he can write a book "How I Flew 1,000,000 Miles for $6,300 a Year".

UG

jetsetr

I think you've said the exact right phrase, "intention to defect." Ultimately if the intention is not met with significant action, then there is no competitive pressure driving programmatic change.

+1 ^

IMHO, the myopia stems from anger and frustration toward UA, but then misdirected and expressed by some against IEs.

And if I had to fathom a guess, the reason we "still bother" is because we know that IEs could have been - and were nearly - in a similar boat. So we sympathize, empathize, and try to help where and when we can.

xFF

Yep. Although I have to admit at times to recalling a scene in the StarTrek III film. Kirk and a Klingon are on a self-destructing planet, fighting, and the latter slips and is clinging to the proverbial ledge. Kirk extends his hand, and the Klingon grabs his leg in an attempt to drag them down together. Kirk, saying "I've had all I can stand of you", kicks him until he loses his grip and falls into the lava.

For me, at times, that's very cathartic and brings me back to point.

Twelve cents per mile is probably not too far from the median; your spend is, which explains why you are GS.

Remember, for the mileage runners, $0.12 per mile is astronomical; their flying is typically at a sixth or fourth of that rate.

kokonutz

jetsetr and zFF: as one of Jeff's red-headed step children, I appreciate the support from you golden-haired full-breeds.

And particularly laud the ST reference. ^

You are correct: we are angry at dad, not at you.

But yeah, also at your full-breed brothers who tell us red-headed step children to 'get over it' and 'stop complaining because that's just the way it is.'

Especially if they 'got theirs' and are telling us to deal with it without disclosing that they 'got theirs'. @:-)

As I keep saying, good for you guys for having gotten yours. Congrats, and I do not wish you ill or for you to have your promises reneged on just because my promises were reneged on.

What I want is for UNITED to honor its commitments. But ultimately, I can tell when I am not wanted. That's cool. I'll take my $20-40k a year high-fare spend elsewhere. And that will be one more empty paid business class seat for you to take advantage of your 1k-for-life in.