KARFA

It is a different approval process in the US compared to that of the MHRA/EMA.

HB7

I understand that. But that's beyond my point. I'm not saying there are any issues with the AZ vaccine, if I'm offered it I'll take it. But the Germans do. And we don't know what the Americans think yet and they are taking a long time to approve it.

If there is any truth to what the Germans are saying, that is worrying.

KARFA

With all due respect I think you are adding 2+2 and coming up with 22.

There is no suggestion of safety issues. This is the judgement of their vaccine committee based on the efficacy data - the equivalent of our Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation - and presumably in comparison to data from the other vaccines available to Germany. They decide on vaccination priorities and timing. They think for their process the AZ vaccine may be best deployed to under 65s. Maybe they think they would prefer to use Pfizer only for over 65s. At the end of the day it is just a different approach, not a suggestion the vaccine doesn't work for over 65s.

The actual regulatory body, the EMA, has yet to give their approval.

HB7

I'm not sure why you're resorting to personal insults. You're trying to complicate a point to make me look like I have no idea what I'm talking about.

It has nothing to do with safety. If the vaccine is not as effective in over 65's as the Germans are alluding, then all of the over 65s here in the UK who have received it are less protected.

Are you arguing that point?

KARFA

Apologies, I really wasn't trying to insult you at all. I wanted to explain there was a lot more behind what has been reported and noted on the thread. It is a complicated scenario and not one easily summed up by a one line headline which is what is being reported.

I mentioned safety just because with efficacy it is one of the two main issues around vaccines, as you note you didn't suggest it was unsafe.

I am not trying to argue anything other than the Germans have decided a slightly different vaccination plan than us, that's it really.

I think at this stage I won't post any further replies on this point, as I say it wasn't my intention to insult you.

plunet

Ouch. In that case I would highly recommend being not totally absorbed in the meeting, whilst maintaining enough of a professional engagement in the meeting to not make it seem like you don't care.
Apologies for my flippancy earlier.
Reading between the lines I guess this might be some more pandemic fallout, and I hope you manage to find your feet and a way to move forward with something new to distract you in due course.

13901

No worries Let's say that my soon-to-be-former company owners have decided to take advantage of the pandemic and opted for a cost cutting exercise. It's alright, wasn't exactly enamoured with the job to be honest... I'm just hoping I can go somewhere in April so I can try out my new bivvy bag!

Internaut

Here's another one from a politics prof I follow on the twatsphere regarding the battle of the vaccines:

Twitter

The thread echoes my own understanding of Pfizer vs AZ based on what we've been told from various sources. Specifically, one is more effective at stopping you from getting infected; the other is more effective at stopping you from getting ill if you do get infected. Either way, it seems we have two very good vaccines and many will die while the Germans (and Europe) procrastinate, just as too many people continue to die here in spite of the vaccine programme. Then again, even in the UK I've had a problem with this all along. Every so often there is a suggestion that this out of patent drug or that might help with the worst illness (or even prevent it), so there's a "study" (sigh). Surely if these drugs are already proved safe (if not effective), just use the bloody drugs now?

fransknorge

The data are provided. This is easy to see the German vaccination committee recommendation: there was only 341 people over 65 yo vaccinated and 319 in the placebo group. Each group had 1 COVID infection.Thus basically efficacy can not be computed from such a poor dataset.



Edit: the UK had exactly the same information and draw the same conclusion, except AFAIK (please correct if i am wrong) they OK'ed AZ for over 65 yo.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...05.01.2021.pdf

13901

Going back to the local lockdowns in the UK, I was reading this bit of news about a young guy being stopped by the police in Solihull. What caught my eye is the following:

I'm not a lawyer but... doesn't this basically make the whole enforcement void? It might perhaps be because I've lived some of my formative years in France where if the CRS stop you, you do comply, but I find it incredibly weird that the police might stop me and I can simply avoid answering and go about my business.

KARFA

That's general powers of stop and question search tho, not additional powers under coronavirus. Also that section states:

which clearly means if there are grounds to believe you are in breach of coronavirus law they can arrest you - which is the case.

EDIT: just my own opinion on this btw, there are some clear examples out there of police misunderstanding the law, misunderstanding the difference between the guidance and the law, and applying what they have termed the "essence" or "spirit" of the law. I dislike those incidents tbh and have said so. I really do not put this story in the same category at all, and instead it is an incident which could have been completely avoided by the young man being a little more courteous and cooperative with the office trying to do a difficult job.

corporate-wage-slave

Let me have a go at this one. The suggestion above that the Oxford vaccine is not as effective in the over 65s is incorrect. What this is about is whether there is enough data to allow emergency use, given the potential risks and benefits. From a German perspective the view is that they don't have enough data for this age cohort. This may also be true of the EMA, we will find out soon. MHRA, however, have reached a different view. All three are looking at the same data, MHRA was prepared to look at other data sources to say that age didn't change effectiveness, a read across in other words. The reason we are in this position is that when the Oxford Phase III started, those initially recruited were younger for safety reasons, it was the first Phase III at the time. As Phase IIIs have come along for multiple candidate vaccines, this caution no longer applies, but this left the trial cohort skewed to younger people at the point when effectiveness was proven.

ahmetdouas

Let's get the popcorn out; Nicola Sturgeon is saying Boris Johnson travelling to Scotland is 'non-essential travel' = )))))). Will Police Scotland issue 10 Downing Street an FPN for Covid breaches? I see several people on Twitter have reported the 'incident' to Police Scotland regarding a COVID breach!

13901

All this talk of the "spirit" of the law gives me vertigo.

13901

In other news, the BBC obtained PHE data showing that

and

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55843506

the save Pret campaign hasn't aged well.