corporate-wage-slave

The legislation is about reducing contacts that cause infections. The virus doesn't greatly care about the context but any situation where people are in close proximity, indoors, not wearing masks, together for more than 15 minutes, is responsible for at least 75% of infections, maybe over 85% of infections. So yes, the relevant statutory instrument certainly forbids the idea of someone from a separate household visiting another household across the board.

This incidentally also explains the support bubble concept - if someone lives alone then in theory they are at a lower risk of spreading the virus, compared to a large multi-generational household. Hence adding them to another household isn't such a great risk as two larger households inter-mixing.

Lynyrd

Does your relative live alone? If so could you not form a linked household? I can�t see anything to state that the linked household must be in the United Kingdom.

In practice irrespective of the technicalities of the legislation, the police will deem this reasonable if for whatever reason they became involved.

psychopompos

Indeed, this was already suggested by c-w-s and is probably the line of reasoning that would be used if we collectively decide that this trip is worth the trouble for everyone involved.

Geordie405

I just wanted to follow up on this discussion about households and whether a relative staying with other family members in a Tier 2 (High) area is permitted or not.

There doesn't seem to be a definition of "household" for the purposes of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local COVID-19 Alert Level) (High) (England) Regulations 2020 and when you look at those regulations in conjunction with The Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (England) Regulations 2020 then there seems to be a glaring inconsistency.

If I travel to the UK and I am not exempt from the requirement to self-isolate for 14 days then I am explicitly allowed to stay with family or friends, even if I don't ordinarily live with them. However, if I travel to the UK and I am exempt from needing to self-isolate then am I able to stay with friends or family? From what I have read, the answer seems to be no, but I can't find any definitive guidance for England. I'm assuming that the International Travel regulations would need to be read / interpreted in conjunction with the Local Alert Level regulations?

There is guidance for Wales where it's stated that "A household means a group of people living in the same home. A household can be one person living on their own, flatmates, or a family living in the same home. What’s important is that it’s always the same people and the same home." (https://gov.wales/guidance-extended-...ds-coronavirus).

The reason I am asking is that I have been advised my by employer that they believe that I am exempt from the need to self-isolate and will therefore be travelling to the UK in the near future. I clearly would like to see family while in the UK and by that I mean actually stay with them as opposed to having a cup of tea in the back garden while we all huddle under umbrellas! If that's what we need to do then that's what we'll do but it would be nice to be able to sit indoors!

Lynyrd

Sorry didn�t spot it as the posts had been moved from elsewhere.

Gagravarr

If you're coming for many weeks, I think (but not everyone does) that you could argue you were moving in with family, making a new temporary larger household. That ought to apply if you're doing 14 days self isolation then staying on, or are exempt from it, but it will need a decent length stay to count as properly moving in and joining their household.

If you're just coming for a few days, I think you'd struggle to argue you were joining their household. So, for just a few days you'd count as a visitor for the relevant rules. In some areas (eg currently tier 1) you can stay in smaller households under the rule of 6. In tier 2+ you won't currently be able to do a short stay

corporate-wage-slave

I've checked and the consensus seems to be that if you cannot claim the bubble (linked households) argument, and you do not have a legal obligation to self isolate, then in Tier 2 and Tier 3 areas you are not permitted to mix between households, unless one of the more obscure exemptions apply (e.g. escaping an abusive relationship). Again, it isn't so much the wording of assorted SI, it's the intent, it's the desire to do the right thing. In reality you are two households, both in high risk areas, and two households - the highest risk of cross infection that we know about outside marriage ceremonies. Enforcement is another matter, I guess that depends on how many twitching net curtains there are in the neighbourhood.

The good news is that with the North East going into Tier 2 there was a small relaxation that now allows for outdoors contact in certain circumstances, which wasn't allowed previously. On the other hand HMG is watching the North East, where some of the figures are falling. If they go up again then the NE will go into Tier 3.

Geordie405

My mam and dad are the primary curtain twitchers in their street so we're fine in that regard

I am closely watching the situation in the north east. My brother who lives in Gateshead was saying that Gateshead's figures were down 9.6% over the last week but Newcastle's continues to rise and that's the concern.

Thanks for checking and for the thoughts. I agree totally about the intent (aka the "mischief rule" of statutory interpretation) so it will be outdoors contact if I do come over!

NewbieRunner

There appear to be more than a dozen SI�s and amendments covering the latest Coronavirus regulations in Northern Ireland.
https://www.health-ni.gov.uk/publica...n-ireland-2020

The regulations were introduced on 16 October 2020 and will be in place for four weeks.

Here is a chart summarising the key points. For more details check the guidance here.

NewbieRunner

The fire-break will start at 6pm on Friday 23 October and end on Monday 9 November. It will apply to everyone living in Wales and will replace the local restrictions which are in force in some parts of the country.

• People must stay at home, except for very limited purposes, such as for exercise.
• People must work from home wherever possible;
• People must not visit other households or meet other people they do not live with either indoors and outdoors
• No gatherings will be allowed outdoors, such as Halloween or fireworks/Bonfire night or other organised activities
• All non-food retail, hospitality businesses, including cafes, restaurants and pubs (unless they provide take-away or delivery services), close contact services, such as hairdressers and beauticians, and events and tourism businesses, such as hotels must close
• Community centres, libraries and recycling centres will be required to close
• Face coverings must be worn in indoor public spaces, which remain open, including on public transport and in taxis.

During this time:

• Adults living alone or single parents will be able to join with one other household for support
• Primary and special schools will re-open as normal after half-term
• Secondary schools will re-open after the half-term for children in years seven and eight and most vulnerable children. Pupils will be able to come in to take exams but other pupils will continue their learning from home for an extra week.
• Universities will provide a blend of in-person and online learning
• Childcare settings will stay open as normal
• NHS and health services will continue to operate
• Local parks, playgrounds and outdoor gyms will remain open.

Following the end of the firebreak, a new set of national rules will be introduced, covering how people can meet and how the public sector and businesses operate.

See post 89 for the relevant SI.
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32765010-post89.html

lhrsfo

In a perfect world, I would agree that it should be the intent, not the SI that matters. However, legally, it's the SI not the intent that matters. And the two are contradictory. Last Friday Mrs LHRSFO and I just finished two weeks self-isolation so that we could visit our elderly relatives in the South West - our self-isolation wasn't legally required, it was something we did so that we could be 100% sure that our visit was safe. Then London went into Tier 2 making the visit illegal. Being law abiding, we cancelled the visit, which caused a huge amount of heartbreak as, realistically, we won't now see them until March I should imagine. However, if the intent mattered, we would have carried on and seen them.

The point is that, the way English justice works, is that laws are developed slowly and carefully, and the courts generally try to interpret the law according to its intent. These laws have been developed quickly and clumsily and there are many instances where the intent and the letter are polar opposites. The longer this carries on, the more either a) the law will be disregarded or b) it will be enforced in a draconian way. Either outcome is very bad for society generally.

DYKWIA

Around here, it seems that there is a revolt planned against these new Tier 3 regulations. Many bars saying they will stay open. Let's see if the police or local authorities take any action.

antichef

Once a bar owner gets told that they will lose their licence or they are closed on health grounds with a non-recommendation when next they come to renew their licence that attitude may change.

More interestingly, they would have no customers if the customers were following the orders from on high! It may give an indication of why things have reached that stage on your area.

KARFA

To be replaced by the national restrictions for Wales with effect from 9 November as detailed in post 263

Just to add to post 85, the relevant law for the Wales "fire break"

The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 3) (Wales) Regulations 2020
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2.../contents/made
SI 2020/1149

This replaces all the previous ones noted in posts 14 & 70.

Silver Fox

As a local do you think that is the mood up there? Speaking to some of my Manc chums I can safely say they are not happy with either the mayor or Boris. But even if bars were open they will not defy the law. Unless it is for an eyesight test. Or a train ride to London. But, joking aside, do you see a mutiny likely?