jags86

lhrsfo

The OP's real issue will be automated machines, and getting around London.

Some automated machines will accept contactless (if below £35) but many will require a PIN. Without it, you will not get your ticket.

Getting around London on public transport will require contactless. Apple and Google Pay will work perfectly well but hold on to the phone tight as you don't want to drop it on the way into a busy station and be trampled as you start scrambling for it - I witnessed this the other day at Victoria.

der_saeufer

Some misinformed Chase reps make up stuff about using the PIN on the card, etc etc because they don't know the difference between EMV chip-and-PIN purchases and a cash advance (which requires a PIN even with the mag stripe).

No matter what some support rep says, if you put a Chase card in a PIN-required device like a Belgian railway ticket machine or an unattended French/German/Dutch/etc gas pump, the payment terminal will refuse the card. (For the record, Tube vending machines do NOT require PINs)

Definitely seconded on Android/Apple Pay. Contactless is everywhere. And when it's not, chip/sign works fine--the most trouble you'll face is waiting for the clerk to find a pen

The Tube is a non-issue. If you don't have contactless, just buy an Oyster card. The vending machines ask for PINs from cards that have them, but--unlike Continental transit vending machines--they'll complete the transaction with no CVM if your card has no PIN support.

CALlegacy

I would repeat my suggestion that people go read the Wiki at USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>] Also informative is the table at EMV CVM Database - Search Reults which documents the actual availability of cards with the respective behavior that one wants.

Note that most CSRs at card companies really don't have any idea how their cards works, what a CVM is, whether or not their cards are contactless when they aren't, how well that will work outside the US, and so on.

dulciusexasperis

The answer is of course very simple CALIegacy, an international traveller (meaning someone who travels outside of their home country more than just once a year on a vacation) should be using true Chip and Pin cards to avoid any possibility of an issue arising. As I initially wrote on this thread, the issues are fewer than they were 10 years or so ago but that does not mean there are NO issues a traveller might encounter. A once a year vacationer might not deem that enough of a reason to go to the trouble of changing their credit card/s but a more frequent international traveller should be doing so.

I find some Americans feel a need to defend their existing domestic system even when it is not their own interest to do so. Credit cards are not about patriotism they are about having a card that works everywhere, every time.

tmiw

How is much of that different vs. the US? Almost no one checks ID or the back of the card in my experience. In fact, most domestic transactions don't need me to sign anything these days.

Really, everyone should be using contactless payment now (whether it's via something like Apple/Google Pay or tapping the physical card). In some areas of the world you'd still be about a generation or so behind by inserting and entering a PIN, even for large transactions. Not to mention that you won't have to sign at all.

On that note, in London and Bristol last year I can count the number of times I had to insert on one hand. And while I did use a PIN-preferring card for some of those, I likely would not have had issues had I used chip and signature instead.

BTW I was able to use contactless on National Rail ticket machines too with no issues. Which probably shouldn't be surprising considering that Visa/MC are mandating contactless support in Europe.

ijgordon

My experience is that even with a US-issued PIN-enabled credit card (e.g., Barclay's offers one, the AA card specifically in my case), at most merchants it will still default to Chip+Signature. It is only at certain automated kiosks that require a PIN that the PIN option will present itself. And of course if you tried to use another credit card without Chip+PIN enabled, it will not work at all at these kiosks (and you have to find an agent). Traditionally these kiosks notably included train stations, but I guess I'm reading above that the London Underground machines don't require a PIN. But I'm sure there are other places that do.

Separate question regarding Apple Pay - if it's hooked up to my Amex card, and the merchant accepts Apple Pay but not Amex, will my Apple Pay still work???

dulciusexasperis

LOL, well I take contactless as simply a given tmiw. Just as I take Chip and Pin as a given. However if you want to talk about contactless specifically, then you would need to be clear that contactless is fine when available to use for your purchase. Generally, contactless has a maximum amount you can use it for. Here in Canada for example it is limited to $100 CAD. There are obviously far too many transactions that you make that exceed that number for you to rely on contactless with a Chip and Signature card as an answer to not having a Chip and Pin card. So in that sense, contactless is limited just like Chip and Signature. The only method that is not limited at all is Chip and Pin. Contactless is simply a bonus if available.

Also keep in mind the issue of security. Chip and PIN is as secure as you can get. Contactless is far from that. In fact, security is the reason why I question whether we should even have contactless at all. I use it constantly myself but I can't help thinking that if I dropped my card by accident, someone can pick it up and make a 'contactless' purchase. Just 2 days ago I saw a woman in the supermarket leave her card behind and the person behind her called her back, 'Excuse me, you forgot your card.' That second person could have just as easily used the card 'contacless'. That's why it has a limit in many places. The security risk is much higher.

JBord

I feel like this same question has been debated many times in the Europe forum.

The bottom line for the OP is that chip & signature works just fine in Europe. It's rare to even get a strange look, especially in popular restaurants and shops. While everyone argues about why the US uses signature or the merits of contactless (IMO not secure) vs. chip and pin (more secure), merchants simply want your money and it won't cause any problems at all if the method you use is not one of the methods preferred by posters here.

Also to the OP, good luck "converting" your existing cards. Most US companies simply don't offer a true chip and pin. You will likely have to get a completely different card, if you're able at all. But it's certainly worth doing so if you travel to Europe a lot. If not, I wouldn't bother, just use your current cards -- the only thing you really need to worry about is whether or not there's a foreign transaction fee.

princeville

FWIW, I've used unmanned machines for train and subway tickets, tolls and gas stations in Europe with no issue - they don't ask for a PIN nor do they require a signature. Off the top of my head, in the past couple years I know I've used unmanned machines in Spain, France, Norway, UK, Italy and Slovenia. As they were travel expenses (except fuel), I probably would have been using my CSR, which is not contactless enabled and I don't have a PIN set up for it.

Are there limits for Apple Pay or contactless cards in the US? I recently used Apple Pay at Costco and I think that charge was ~$300.

tmiw

Nope. How a card is presented has no bearing on whether a merchant will accept cards from a particular network. (Exception being those places that can't handle AmEx contactless but can accept inserted AmEx cards, but that's a terminal configuration problem.)

£30 actually goes a pretty long way in the UK for a single person, at least at the types of places where I usually go. For everything else, there's mobile wallets, which aren't subject to caps if the terminal's configured properly. (In fact, the vast majority of terminals in the UK where I tapped actually said "device verified". The rest are required to be updated before the Visa/MC contactless mandate goes into effect.)

Also, chip and signature isn't as limited as you imply. If it were, we'd be hearing about problems a lot more often (and there would likely be way more cards available in the US with at least backup PIN as a result simply because the banks wouldn't have any choice).

The way I see it, if banks saw significant enough fraud losses from contactless, it wouldn't exist at all. Apparently whatever losses that exist right now are manageable.

Also, in some countries (Australia for example), you can tap above the limit and enter your PIN without needing to insert. It's really no different from a security perspective except for not needing to enter PIN for smaller transactions.

As for PIN vs. signature for US cards, I consider that a solved issue at this point. Barring some cataclysmic event, I highly doubt the chip side of our cards will ever change en masse, especially since the networks are pushing contactless and mobile payment so heavily. Even if contactless ends up becoming a flop in the US for a second time, the networks will likely continue their efforts at making EMV itself less objectionable (Quick Chip, for instance) and leave it at that. However, I suspect that we'll see significant bonuses/rewards for contactless use long before they throw in the towel.

Nope. Considering how paranoid some/most Americans are about contactless cards, I'm not sure this is a good decision on the card networks' part--especially as contactless cards slowly become more common. This despite the fact that inserting would have the same level of authentication as tapping (basically none).

That said, Apple/Google Pay are considered "authenticated" and typically aren't subject to any countries' contactless caps as mentioned above.

rasheed

I'll add again that there continues to be no problem with chip and signature cards overseas.

I did find contactless very useful in London (up to £30, card tapping when the total was above got a denial from the terminal). I think you can go higher with mobile phone tap (Samsung Pay does work in offline mode, no mobile data needed - just WiFi sync every so often). A good Capital One or other no FTF card that has tap/contactless support works fine. I would try very hard to have a no FTF contactless card in your portfolio to take rather than focus on PIN (although I had a no FTF Barclays card at the backup ready if I needed to do a PIN only terminal). When I did spend over £30, a pen was available to sign the slip (for no real use because no one was checking the card or ID anyway to match signatures).

I have seen some articles that contactless fraud in London (people swiping the tap/contactless signal info) is on the rise and has exceeded a few other methods of fraud.

tmiw

I'm not sure even that's necessary when there's stuff like Apple Pay. It's nice not to have to worry about batteries, sure, but it's also nice not to even think about having to sign anything. However, some merchants in Europe may be more familiar with contactless cards than mobile wallets, so it may be a bit easier to use the former.

"Exceeded check fraud" per this article, though it's not like checks are really used all that much in most countries. Also, a lot of the issues seem to be due to UK contactless cards being able to authorize transactions offline (which is going away soon if not already).

der_saeufer

It varies by country and vendor. I live here and can tell you with 100% certainty that NMBS/SNCB (Belgian rail) ticket machines won't take an American card without a PIN, nor will NS (Dutch rail) or any unattended gas station in B or NL I've ever tried. Neither did any of three Italian gas pumps last week. Now that American debit cards are EMV-enabled, it's not that big of an issue for occasional visitors--except to unattended French gas pumps--since American debit cards generally support online PIN, they're a usable backup.

In the UK, though, it's entirely a non-issue. The only place my CSR hasn't worked in the UK was at an unattended Tesco gas station, but neither a German MC nor a Belgian Maestro card worked there either because they only accept UK-issued cards

The look on the clerk's face when I used Google Pay for a kr 10000 (over $1000) hotel bill in Norway was priceless. Meanwhile the terminals at my local supermarket refuse any contactless payment over €25... and another one has an oddball Maestro implementation where you tap and PIN.

JBord

I hadn't thought about debit cards as an alternative, simply because I never use mine as such, only as an ATM/bank machine card. Here in the US, there's no advantage to using a debit card over credit, and it fact it's a disadvantage as they don't give rebates or pay points.

I have a routine at AMS where I have to go the window to buy my train ticket, when it would be simpler to use one of the many kiosks. I'll have to give my debit card a try next time.