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Originally Posted by phol
(Post 22921343)
I cant replicate those prices on ITA even using the same criteria you used.
Route Airline Cost PEK-FCO SU £633 PEK-CDG SU £647 PEK-LHR SU £656 PEK-CDG CZ £663 PEK-FCO HU/SN £673 PEK-CDG AY £678 PEK-LHR OS £680 PEK-CDG CZ/KL £694 PEK-FCO AF £703 PEK-FCO TK £707 PEK-CDG OS £708 PEK-FCO LX £709 PEK-FCO AY £711 PEK-CDG LX £712 PEK-LHR LX £714 PEK-FCO MU/AZ £717 PEK-CDG AF £728 PEK-FCO LH £728 PEK-CDG LH £734 PEK-CDG KL £746 PEK-LHR LH £746 It still shows the same thing: that there is no clear pattern of fares to London being increased by the amount of the APD. This is true across the board and also on many individual airlines. For instance, SU cheapest fares to London are indeed more expensive than to Paris but by a mere £9. Once you take into account exchange rates variations, this is pretty much indiscernible. Conversely, the lowest OS fare on PEK-LHR (£680) is lower than their lowest fare on PEK-CDG (£708). LX charges £709 to FCO, £712 to CDG and £714 to LHR, so pretty much the same. Ditto for LH at £732, £734 and £742 respectively. All in all, thus, there is no evidence of systematic higher fares to London due to APD. You are quite right that CZ does charge substantially more to LON than to CDG. It seems that CZ does not seem to follow usual market pricing principles and seemingly has a set fare for "Europe" regardless of what the demand is to various destinations. But what this shows is that it is dangerous to draw conclusions based on just one airline, especially an airline which has pricing practices that seemingly run counter to normal market practices. |
Originally Posted by NickB
(Post 22921549)
Actually, you are right that I forgot to untick "allow airport changes" in my search, resulting in mixed itineraries. The corrected table is as follows:
Route Airline Cost PEK-FCO SU £633 PEK-CDG SU £647 PEK-LHR SU £656 PEK-CDG CZ £663 PEK-FCO HU/SN £673 PEK-CDG AY £678 PEK-LHR OS £680 PEK-CDG CZ/KL £694 PEK-FCO AF £703 PEK-FCO TK £707 PEK-CDG OS £708 PEK-FCO LX £709 PEK-FCO AY £711 PEK-CDG LX £712 PEK-LHR LX £714 PEK-FCO MU/AZ £717 PEK-CDG AF £728 PEK-FCO LH £728 PEK-CDG LH £734 PEK-CDG KL £746 PEK-LHR LH £746 It still shows the same thing: that there is no clear pattern of fares to London being increased by the amount of the APD. This is true across the board and also on many individual airlines. For instance, SU cheapest fares to London are indeed more expensive than to Paris but by a mere £9. Once you take into account exchange rates variations, this is pretty much indiscernible. Conversely, the lowest OS fare on PEK-LHR (£680) is lower than their lowest fare on PEK-CDG (£708). LX charges £709 to FCO, £712 to CDG and £714 to LHR, so pretty much the same. Ditto for LH at £732, £734 and £742 respectively. All in all, thus, there is no evidence of systematic higher fares to London due to APD. You are quite right that CZ does charge substantially more to LON than to CDG. It seems that CZ does not seem to follow usual market pricing principles and seemingly has a set fare for "Europe" regardless of what the demand is to various destinations. But what this shows is that it is dangerous to draw conclusions based on just one airline, especially an airline which has pricing practices that seemingly run counter to normal market practices. China Eastern does absorb some of the fare difference, but it is still ¥702 more expensive to fly to LHR. That's 3 of the biggest airlines in the world coming from one of the most important markets, in other words far from just an anomaly. Spread across a family those APD charges add up. If they didn't affect flights at all the APD debate would be non existent, but it's not. |
Originally Posted by phol
(Post 22921845)
Air China does the same thing (that itinerary is ¥993 cheaper to CDG, of which ¥902 is APD)
China Eastern does absorb some of the fare difference, but it is still ¥702 more expensive to fly to LHR. That's 3 of the biggest airlines in the world coming from one of the most important markets, in other words far from just an anomaly. Spread across a family those APD charges add up. If they didn't affect flights at all the APD debate would be non existent, but it's not. |
If you want to see the impact APD has, you must compare like for like fares, not discounted fares that come and go frequently from different airlines. Many passengers will not be interested in getting a rock bottom fare with a stopover in Moscow or wherever else. If there was no impact, there would not be the countless debates and articles in traditional and social media that there is.
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All I know is that in business class, LHR-SFO is noticeably more expensive than BRU-SFO + Eurostar ticket + local ticket from Gare du Midi to the airport.
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Originally Posted by RichardInSF
(Post 22924633)
All I know is that in business class, LHR-SFO is noticeably more expensive than BRU-SFO + Eurostar ticket + local ticket from Gare du Midi to the airport.
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Originally Posted by mry
(Post 22919194)
We live in the US and often travel to France.
It has actually prevented us on multiple occasions from spending an extra 2-3 day family holiday in London combined with an EU trip. It won't kill us, but why spend an extra $500-700 if we don't have to? The per diem amount isn't palatable. If you fly US to UK, break your trip then continue UK to France, you will only pay 4 x short haul economy APD. That is $100 max for 4. Breaking your trip on the return will I admit be $700. |
Originally Posted by RichardInSF
(Post 22924633)
All I know is that in business class, LHR-SFO is noticeably more expensive than BRU-SFO + Eurostar ticket + local ticket from Gare du Midi to the airport.
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Originally Posted by phol
(Post 22924138)
If you want to see the impact APD has, you must compare like for like fares, not discounted fares that come and go frequently from different airlines. Many passengers will not be interested in getting a rock bottom fare with a stopover in Moscow or wherever else.
However, comparing a rock bottom fare PEK-LON via Moscow to a rock bottom fare PEK-PAR via Moscow IS comparing like with like. Moreover, I did not give a single example but several, including airlines like LH or LX. Now, if you consider that passengers are not interested in flying airlines like Lufthansa or Swiss between Asia and Europe, I will leave that judgment to you. If there was no impact, there would not be the countless debates and articles in traditional and social media that there is. |
Originally Posted by RichardInSF
(Post 22924633)
All I know is that in business class, LHR-SFO is noticeably more expensive than BRU-SFO + Eurostar ticket + local ticket from Gare du Midi to the airport.
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The APD charges aren't large enough to make me want to avoid them however some taxes/charges on awards are but there has to be for a reason for doing it besides saving money.
Flying to the UK from EZE via MAD actually makes the journey more enjoyable. It shortens the long haul sector into a more manageable length plus offers a daylight flight back which is the biggest bonus for me. Madrid is a nice city to stopover and when using Avios transferred into IB you save hundreds of pounds on the taxes....far more than the cost of a hotel for a night or two. I really don't fancy doing all that hopping off then getting back on the same plane to end up back where I started malarkey. The wife wouldn't be too pleased with it either. However, if the savings were enough +£1000 I'd be tempted. Just to add I take advantage of BA's RFS awards for the MAD -UK flights. |
Originally Posted by NickB
(Post 22925588)
And you consider that as being conclusive evidence that APD is the cause of the price differential? Have you perhaps contemplated the possibility that there might be other factors at play?
Still, do you honestly think that the 138 pound tax isn't relevant? And of course, on an award ticket with an airline that doesn't have "fuel charges" the entire difference is the tax. |
Originally Posted by RichardInSF
(Post 22926460)
Nope, all I care is that it's cheaper. And that I can have a nice meal in Brussels.
Still, do you honestly think that the 138 pound tax isn't relevant? And of course, on an award ticket with an airline that doesn't have "fuel charges" the entire difference is the tax. |
The APD differential is not large enough for me to look to avoid it - anything I do to try to avoid is likely to take more time and end up costing close to what the original ticket would have been in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Jenbel
(Post 22926980)
The APD differential is not large enough for me to look to avoid it - anything I do to try to avoid is likely to take more time and end up costing close to what the original ticket would have been in the first place.
A rare exception might be DUB to ??? and back into LHR, but this often depends on the cost of the LHR-DUB fare. As I typically drive to the airport (save quite a bit thanks to parkatmyhouse.com), I need to depart/return to the same LON airport. :) |
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