Dear John letter from the Ambassador Club.
Sep 6, 2001, 8:21 pm
#46
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: AA EXP/mm, Travelholics Anonymous
Posts: 2,962
Does AA even have lifetime memberships for their clubs? They don't right? Yet AA somehow is expected to create a new class of memberships for people who have demonstrated loyalty to... some other airline? To me, this is absurd and beyond the pale. Most TWA people realize that their airline was not a truly viable concern when AA snatched up the remains, TWA was in fact bankrupt. The destinction is an important one, yet seems to escape some people here. TWA members have benefits in an airline, that went bankrupt. AA has been gracious and intelligent in extending several benefits. Hey, I can understand the attempt to get a freebie, the whole elite mileage thing breeds a class of complainers and beggers with unreasonable expectations, sometimes taken to an extreme among the most elite members as we can see here, nudge nudge http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Wouldn't giving a lifetime freebie to people loyal to a different airline, totally shock the sensibilities of those who had instead been loyal to AA, spending many thousands on tickets each year, and still never getting a freebie memberships like a few TWA people insist they are due? Isn't the perspective of existing AA members worth considering? I believe so, this is exactly why they dumped giving free elite status referrals, it upset and alientated people who had to put considerable money and effort into what others got for free. Even executive platinum members, or 2 million mile members, are not given club access for free, yet these TWA people are acting like it is an entitement. Unreal.
The other oddity is the confidence these TWA members have in asserting that not extending totally free, lifetime memberships to them is a bad business decision. Do they have access to accounting projections and strategic marketing analysis AA does not? No, I think the logic goes like this. 1) AA won't meet my totally unreasonable demands to give me a completely free, lifetime benefit so I will unreasonably huff away and spend my money elsewhere. 2) Because I took my money elsewhere, it is a bad business decision for AA.
I think in any airline aquisition and merger, there simply are going to be some huffy primadonnas whose demands are so extreme, that accomodating them is simply not good business. With some of these people, the sooner you write them off the better, because it's questionable they were really interested in AA anyway. In this case, the nature of the demand is telling -- it involves no demonstration of loyalty to AA whatsoever, not even a single dollar in purchased airfare, they just want the lifetime freebie immediately. They haven't even considered how such a move would alienate existing AA club members.
If you want AA perks, and you spend lots of money on travel, it is easy to do. AA has transferred over your elite memberships. You can even advance and maintain the tiers more quickly with gold and platinum challenges. With elite status you can even purchase club memberships more cheaply. AA is even going well beyond the call of duty, giving you two years free and an unending discount. If after all these enticements, another airline and FF program is more appealing, go for it.
[This message has been edited by benoit (edited 09-06-2001).]
Wouldn't giving a lifetime freebie to people loyal to a different airline, totally shock the sensibilities of those who had instead been loyal to AA, spending many thousands on tickets each year, and still never getting a freebie memberships like a few TWA people insist they are due? Isn't the perspective of existing AA members worth considering? I believe so, this is exactly why they dumped giving free elite status referrals, it upset and alientated people who had to put considerable money and effort into what others got for free. Even executive platinum members, or 2 million mile members, are not given club access for free, yet these TWA people are acting like it is an entitement. Unreal.
The other oddity is the confidence these TWA members have in asserting that not extending totally free, lifetime memberships to them is a bad business decision. Do they have access to accounting projections and strategic marketing analysis AA does not? No, I think the logic goes like this. 1) AA won't meet my totally unreasonable demands to give me a completely free, lifetime benefit so I will unreasonably huff away and spend my money elsewhere. 2) Because I took my money elsewhere, it is a bad business decision for AA.
I think in any airline aquisition and merger, there simply are going to be some huffy primadonnas whose demands are so extreme, that accomodating them is simply not good business. With some of these people, the sooner you write them off the better, because it's questionable they were really interested in AA anyway. In this case, the nature of the demand is telling -- it involves no demonstration of loyalty to AA whatsoever, not even a single dollar in purchased airfare, they just want the lifetime freebie immediately. They haven't even considered how such a move would alienate existing AA club members.
If you want AA perks, and you spend lots of money on travel, it is easy to do. AA has transferred over your elite memberships. You can even advance and maintain the tiers more quickly with gold and platinum challenges. With elite status you can even purchase club memberships more cheaply. AA is even going well beyond the call of duty, giving you two years free and an unending discount. If after all these enticements, another airline and FF program is more appealing, go for it.
[This message has been edited by benoit (edited 09-06-2001).]
Sep 6, 2001, 10:00 pm
#47
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NYC&RIC-AA LT PLT w/3.9mm
Programs: Ex-BA Silver; Ex-UA Premier
Posts: 1,135
Nologic has posted above "The FACT is that AA ...[is]... the first and only airline in history to break with acquisition precedent and not honor lifetime club memberships" is not entirely true.
When CO took over certain assets of EA (mainly domestic routes and equipment, AA having already bought the SA routes and Trump the Shuttle), CO did not immediately recognize the Lifetime Ionosphere Club memberships. Several months after EA ceased flying, CO made an offer (at least to me) to convert mine to LT Presidents Club - but only if I flew 4 roundtrips on CO in a very short period of time. CO did not then fly where I needed to go so there was NO way I could take it up on this "offer". I have also read posts for the past year or two on the FT CO board that not everyone even received this proposal.
Even now when CO has a much improved reputation and does fly where I go (although not from the airport I prefer), I seldom fly them - at least partially because of their failure to accept the EA Club Lifetimers. Somewhere I read a suggestion of mailing them the LT IC card and asking for LT PC membership. Since I have a dupe card, maybe I should try it. If successful, it could prove nologic's point. Otherwise, he should vote with his feet, as I have with CO.
When CO took over certain assets of EA (mainly domestic routes and equipment, AA having already bought the SA routes and Trump the Shuttle), CO did not immediately recognize the Lifetime Ionosphere Club memberships. Several months after EA ceased flying, CO made an offer (at least to me) to convert mine to LT Presidents Club - but only if I flew 4 roundtrips on CO in a very short period of time. CO did not then fly where I needed to go so there was NO way I could take it up on this "offer". I have also read posts for the past year or two on the FT CO board that not everyone even received this proposal.
Even now when CO has a much improved reputation and does fly where I go (although not from the airport I prefer), I seldom fly them - at least partially because of their failure to accept the EA Club Lifetimers. Somewhere I read a suggestion of mailing them the LT IC card and asking for LT PC membership. Since I have a dupe card, maybe I should try it. If successful, it could prove nologic's point. Otherwise, he should vote with his feet, as I have with CO.
Sep 6, 2001, 10:58 pm
#48
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Third planet from the Sun
Posts: 7,022
What is the discount they are offering after the first two free years?
Sep 6, 2001, 11:52 pm
#49
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 3,026
AA and UA do have (Did have?) lifetime memberships as does DL. I now get comments from all 3 when they see my cards, I guess there aren't that many left.
Sep 7, 2001, 6:36 am
#50
Join Date: Jul 1999
Programs: AA 1MM/Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,215
A couple of points here:
1) TWA filed for bankruptcy as part of a pre-packaged buyout deal with AA. This is different than if AA came in after the fact and picked up some pieces of the airline.
2) AA, at one time, did offer lifetime Admirals Club memeberships, just as it offered a lifetime AAirpass option.
3) AA is offering TWA FF's, even those who have never set foot on an AA plane, equivalent miles and status in the AAdvantage program. In addition, while offering TW Elites matching status in the AAdvantage program, AA did not do same for current AAdvantage members for the rest of the Aviators program.
4) High level Elite flyers do have complimentary access to One World lounges on international flights. While not the same as granting same-day Admirals Club access, it is an important Elite benefit.
5) The number of TWA Platinums, and I would guess, the number of Lifetime Ambassador Club members, is very limited. I would imagine that there is a fair degree of overlap here. Whatever financial impact there is to AA, plus or minus, of this decision, is pretty minimal.
6) If AA does in fact decide to honor "lifetime" TWA miles towards AA million mile status, will there be similar complaints from AA flyers, even those who stand to benefit from this decision?
1) TWA filed for bankruptcy as part of a pre-packaged buyout deal with AA. This is different than if AA came in after the fact and picked up some pieces of the airline.
2) AA, at one time, did offer lifetime Admirals Club memeberships, just as it offered a lifetime AAirpass option.
3) AA is offering TWA FF's, even those who have never set foot on an AA plane, equivalent miles and status in the AAdvantage program. In addition, while offering TW Elites matching status in the AAdvantage program, AA did not do same for current AAdvantage members for the rest of the Aviators program.
4) High level Elite flyers do have complimentary access to One World lounges on international flights. While not the same as granting same-day Admirals Club access, it is an important Elite benefit.
5) The number of TWA Platinums, and I would guess, the number of Lifetime Ambassador Club members, is very limited. I would imagine that there is a fair degree of overlap here. Whatever financial impact there is to AA, plus or minus, of this decision, is pretty minimal.
6) If AA does in fact decide to honor "lifetime" TWA miles towards AA million mile status, will there be similar complaints from AA flyers, even those who stand to benefit from this decision?
Sep 7, 2001, 6:36 am
#51
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Westchester, NY AA P/3MM, DL SM/MM, STW PLT
Posts: 5,490
TWA's Lifetime Club Members Get Cold Welcome From American
When is a lifetime not a lifetime? When you're a member of TWA's Ambassador Club program.
In the wake of TWA's bankruptcy-court proceedings and subsequent purchase by American Airlines, members of TWA's Ambassadors Club program are being folded into American's Admirals Club. But their welcome there will be short-lived for some: American has notified some 30,000 TWA fliers with so-called lifetime memberships that their access will expire April 30, 2003. "Lifetime members will then be allowed to renew their Admirals Club membership," according to American's letter. The price: $250 per year.
George Bulow, a New York entrepreneur, says he resents having to "keep paying" after he shelled out $1,500 for a TWA lifetime membership in the late 1980s. "American has now put the wood to people like me," he says.
American says it will stop honoring TWA's lifetime members at its 50 clubs world-wide because it sells only yearly memberships for its Admirals Club. "It's not a comparable product," says an American spokesman.
Even so, once they're inside club doors, former Ambassadors shouldn't expect too warm a welcome. TWA fliers should consider themselves lucky, says Bobby Finken, a Dallas sales executive and Admirals Club member for more than a decade. "Why should some guy who had no loyalty to American be able to come in?"
http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/...5673233905.htm
When is a lifetime not a lifetime? When you're a member of TWA's Ambassador Club program.
In the wake of TWA's bankruptcy-court proceedings and subsequent purchase by American Airlines, members of TWA's Ambassadors Club program are being folded into American's Admirals Club. But their welcome there will be short-lived for some: American has notified some 30,000 TWA fliers with so-called lifetime memberships that their access will expire April 30, 2003. "Lifetime members will then be allowed to renew their Admirals Club membership," according to American's letter. The price: $250 per year.
George Bulow, a New York entrepreneur, says he resents having to "keep paying" after he shelled out $1,500 for a TWA lifetime membership in the late 1980s. "American has now put the wood to people like me," he says.
American says it will stop honoring TWA's lifetime members at its 50 clubs world-wide because it sells only yearly memberships for its Admirals Club. "It's not a comparable product," says an American spokesman.
Even so, once they're inside club doors, former Ambassadors shouldn't expect too warm a welcome. TWA fliers should consider themselves lucky, says Bobby Finken, a Dallas sales executive and Admirals Club member for more than a decade. "Why should some guy who had no loyalty to American be able to come in?"
http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/...5673233905.htm
Sep 7, 2001, 6:44 am
#52
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,602
---------------------------------------------Benoit, your wrong when you posted -----------------------------------
"Does AA even have lifetime memberships for their clubs? They don't right? Yet AA somehow is expected to create a new class of memberships for people who have demonstrated loyalty to... some other airline?"
American Airlines has had Lifetime Memberships but they no longer sell them. TWA has had Lifetime Memberships but they also no longer sell them. AA has continued to honor their Lifetime Memberships although they no longer sell them. AA will not honor TWA's Lifetime membership.
Many have posted that other airlines have honored the Life memberships of an airline they have ingested, and now AA is breaking with the tradition. I can validate that USAir has honored a Club Family Life Membership of an airline they ingested in our case. I was unaware that any Club Members had complained when their Airline had honored membership of other airlines.
Only AA can judge if this is a good or a bad business practice, but there appear to some who will be taking their business to another airline because of the break in tradition in honoring TWA's Ambassador Club. How many Life Ambassador Club Members does this include? I don't think any of us know, but there is a letter writing campaign underway by one of the members of this board about this loss. I can report that when I called one of AA's competitors and talked with their highest level frequent flyer agents, he told me that they have received "lots" of calls from Aviator Members who want to leave AA. You can guess many is "lots" as well as I.
"Does AA even have lifetime memberships for their clubs? They don't right? Yet AA somehow is expected to create a new class of memberships for people who have demonstrated loyalty to... some other airline?"
American Airlines has had Lifetime Memberships but they no longer sell them. TWA has had Lifetime Memberships but they also no longer sell them. AA has continued to honor their Lifetime Memberships although they no longer sell them. AA will not honor TWA's Lifetime membership.
Many have posted that other airlines have honored the Life memberships of an airline they have ingested, and now AA is breaking with the tradition. I can validate that USAir has honored a Club Family Life Membership of an airline they ingested in our case. I was unaware that any Club Members had complained when their Airline had honored membership of other airlines.
Only AA can judge if this is a good or a bad business practice, but there appear to some who will be taking their business to another airline because of the break in tradition in honoring TWA's Ambassador Club. How many Life Ambassador Club Members does this include? I don't think any of us know, but there is a letter writing campaign underway by one of the members of this board about this loss. I can report that when I called one of AA's competitors and talked with their highest level frequent flyer agents, he told me that they have received "lots" of calls from Aviator Members who want to leave AA. You can guess many is "lots" as well as I.
Sep 7, 2001, 11:40 am
#53
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Third planet from the Sun
Posts: 7,022
Most people who fly on premium fares are doing it on their company expense. Most of these companies have contracts with certain airlines for reduced rates. Even if a person wanted to change to a different airline they may not be able to unless they convinced their company to change to a different airline.
For the people who buy their own tickets on their own dime, I doubt there is enough of them to have any impact on AA.
For people looking to change airlines, the only two airlines that offer something more similar to TWA would be NW and maybe CO. Both of these programs come up short when you compare the depth and advantages of their respectful programs.
If the competition was serious about getting people to move away from AA/TWA, they would be offering a lifetime membership in their lounge programs to current lifetime Ambasador lounge members.
Even if you do not like how AA is treating you, your lifetime membership has some value if you stay with AA. It has no value if you jump ship and move your business elsewhere.
For the people who buy their own tickets on their own dime, I doubt there is enough of them to have any impact on AA.
For people looking to change airlines, the only two airlines that offer something more similar to TWA would be NW and maybe CO. Both of these programs come up short when you compare the depth and advantages of their respectful programs.
If the competition was serious about getting people to move away from AA/TWA, they would be offering a lifetime membership in their lounge programs to current lifetime Ambasador lounge members.
Even if you do not like how AA is treating you, your lifetime membership has some value if you stay with AA. It has no value if you jump ship and move your business elsewhere.
Sep 7, 2001, 9:08 pm
#54
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Programs: AA EXP (LT Plat 2MM), Marriott Plat, IHG Plat, HHonors Diamond, Hyatt Plat, SPG Plat75, UA1K
Posts: 1,248
I have been following the various posts regarding the whole Admirals Club/Ambassador Club debate for awhile now. It's really getting tiring listening to all of the TWA folks complain about not getting their LT memberships transferred to AA. Let's face it - if selling a lifetime mebership for $1500 bucks was a good business decision, TWA would still be in business. It was a ridiculously low rate and if you got 4 or 5 years year out of the deal, I would say you broke even. When you compare the sheer number of club locations that AA has (50+) versus the 10 locations that TW had, you will be increasing by 500% the number of facilities you have access to. That alone has got to have some value. Of course, if AA had not bought TW, there probably wouldn't be a TW at this moment and you would have to pay for a membership anyway. At least now you are getting two years at no charge.
Like many TWA LT Ambassador Club members have said, they will express their displeasure by flying other carriers. That's cool - it will mean one less person who is competing for an upgrade and one less person at the bar!
Like many TWA LT Ambassador Club members have said, they will express their displeasure by flying other carriers. That's cool - it will mean one less person who is competing for an upgrade and one less person at the bar!
Sep 10, 2001, 4:26 pm
#55
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 527
It baffles me that some of you have no clue as to what going on and still trying to be expert on the subject. For example, there were 14 Ambassador Clubs not 10 so ORDPLATAA math is fuzzy at best. There are other posts above that are just pure fictions, or assumptions from people that think they know how airlines operate. Can we all talk facts instead of shooting from the hip?
AA treatment of their TWA lifetime Ambassador members left me wondering if Carl Ican could have done any worse if the court let him buy out TWA.
AA treatment of their TWA lifetime Ambassador members left me wondering if Carl Ican could have done any worse if the court let him buy out TWA.
Sep 10, 2001, 6:38 pm
#56
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Third planet from the Sun
Posts: 7,022
AH-64D: I hope your are joking about Uncle Carl. He is probably the main reason why TWA ended up on the ropes. He bled the airline dry. There should be a law keeping these types out of the aviation business.
If you want a list of all the stupid things he did just let me know.
If you want a list of all the stupid things he did just let me know.
Sep 11, 2001, 6:54 am
#57
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 1,602
ORDPLATAA:
I have a simple solution for you-if you "are getting sick of reading".... posts about the Life Ambassador Club issue, then simply don't read this topic. What could be easier?
I have a simple solution for you-if you "are getting sick of reading".... posts about the Life Ambassador Club issue, then simply don't read this topic. What could be easier?
Mar 31, 2002, 7:22 pm
#58
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: San Diego,CA,USA
Programs: Southwest Companion Pass American Admirals Club Lifetime,IHG Rewards Spire,HHonors Gold
Posts: 1,358
When Delta took over the original Pan AM Ionospheres club I remembered they honored all the lifetime memberships, thus some Crown Room members are still lifetime! I think the same thing happened with Western Airlines as well... Shame on AA http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif
And by the way their are many lifetime Admirals Club members because AA was selling them until 1998.
And by the way their are many lifetime Admirals Club members because AA was selling them until 1998.
Apr 3, 2002, 2:47 pm
#59
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 15,347
Ionosphere was Eastern (which BTW CO comped), Clipper Club was Pan Am, and yes they did comp lifetime when DL bought them. Slightly different scenario though TWA went bust. Pan Am went bust in a much more drawn out fashion. In fact DL bought some of Pan Am's operations and then took a large equity stake in the new Pan Am. So the situation was different.