The return from NYC... JFK-ATL on Delta 9/16/01
Sep 17, 2001, 10:59 am
#16
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Circle City
Posts: 3,568
QL, that *has* to be the quote of the day...
Stories like this chill me to the bone. Love us or leave us, I feel that Southern Californians are some of the most tolerant people I have met (contrary to what the media would like you to believe). The general sentiment is that "something like that will never happen here," but I am terribly afraid that it will. As I said to my mum, I am not afraid of extremists and fanatics. There aren't a relative lot of them, and generally they are too disorganized to sustain an ongoing threat. Al-Qaeda is a notable exception to the latter, obviously. What do scare me are normal, otherwise rational humans who begin to act irrationally because it becomes a mob mentality very quickly. People at that point are no longer thinking for themselves, they are believing what people like Peter Jennings and Connie Chung are telling them. If I was forced to allow someone to do my thinking for me, I don't know if I would want it to be someone with that bad of a haircut.
Here is a link to a story that broke my heart. I know that news people like to sensationalize, but I don't regard this as sensationalism. Sorry about the length of the link, but there isn't much I can do.
Click here
[This message has been edited by Darren (edited 09-17-2001).]
Stories like this chill me to the bone. Love us or leave us, I feel that Southern Californians are some of the most tolerant people I have met (contrary to what the media would like you to believe). The general sentiment is that "something like that will never happen here," but I am terribly afraid that it will. As I said to my mum, I am not afraid of extremists and fanatics. There aren't a relative lot of them, and generally they are too disorganized to sustain an ongoing threat. Al-Qaeda is a notable exception to the latter, obviously. What do scare me are normal, otherwise rational humans who begin to act irrationally because it becomes a mob mentality very quickly. People at that point are no longer thinking for themselves, they are believing what people like Peter Jennings and Connie Chung are telling them. If I was forced to allow someone to do my thinking for me, I don't know if I would want it to be someone with that bad of a haircut.
Here is a link to a story that broke my heart. I know that news people like to sensationalize, but I don't regard this as sensationalism. Sorry about the length of the link, but there isn't much I can do.
Click here
[This message has been edited by Darren (edited 09-17-2001).]
Sep 17, 2001, 11:50 am
#18
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: San Francisco
Programs: UA Mileage Plus Premier Gold 1MM, Marriott Gold
Posts: 1,467
So, so, so very sorry to hear about the treatment you received on your trip. Did you get badge numbers?
I'm just glad it wasn't me. I'd probably be the one in cuffs right now if it was. I look like any fat,white, american geek but know from personal experience that I have a "problem with authority" so I'm sure that makes me a target.
JD
I'm just glad it wasn't me. I'd probably be the one in cuffs right now if it was. I look like any fat,white, american geek but know from personal experience that I have a "problem with authority" so I'm sure that makes me a target.
JD
Sep 17, 2001, 11:53 am
#19
Suspended
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Promoted to Chairman of the Most Wonderful Continental Airlines Highly Valuable OnePass Program Security and Ideological Purity Bureau
Posts: 4,129
Wow.
A letter to Delta, the Port Authority, and the Department of Transportation are in order.
1. Racial/ethnic profiling is still illegal in this country, regardless of the circumstances.
2. Even if you were deemed "suspicious" for non-racial/ethnic reasons, the treatment that you received by the Border Patrol agents was wrong.
If you don't receive swfit action from Delta et. al., I would suggest that you might want to get in touch with some of the FTers who work in the media...
A letter to Delta, the Port Authority, and the Department of Transportation are in order.
1. Racial/ethnic profiling is still illegal in this country, regardless of the circumstances.
2. Even if you were deemed "suspicious" for non-racial/ethnic reasons, the treatment that you received by the Border Patrol agents was wrong.
If you don't receive swfit action from Delta et. al., I would suggest that you might want to get in touch with some of the FTers who work in the media...
Sep 17, 2001, 1:21 pm
#20
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: ATL, DL GM
Posts: 105
B,
Your report saddens me greatly.
Our leaders are talking about how they are working to "defend freedom". They obviously don't mean our freedom as your story so aptly illustrates.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: thre greatest danger before us now is the theft of our God-given rights at the hand of our so-called protectors.
The truth that no one is willing state is that the new retrictions are simply a projection of power by the powerful to the powerless, so that we powerless are only more intensely aware of our powerlessness. The expected result is that we will gladly grant even greater dominion over our lives to those whose thirst for power knows no bounds.
I have always enjoyed traveling on business. It was the best part of my job. I find now that I no longer want to go, not out of fear of somebody trying to deprive me of my life in some futile poltical gesture, but because the sense of dread of being subjected to the capricious whims of jack-booted authority and the sense of grief I feel over the further loss of our liberty at our own hands. This cure is worse than the disease. How can I save my children from the terror we are beginning to afflict on ourselves?
B-747, my sympathies are with you. I don't know that I could be as calm as your message makes you appear. If I were you, I'd be all over the media, my elected representatives, Delta mangement, and anybody else that would listen. I shudder to think what the next few years are going to be like if this hysteria continues...
God bless us all,
Boatman in ATL
Your report saddens me greatly.
Our leaders are talking about how they are working to "defend freedom". They obviously don't mean our freedom as your story so aptly illustrates.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: thre greatest danger before us now is the theft of our God-given rights at the hand of our so-called protectors.
The truth that no one is willing state is that the new retrictions are simply a projection of power by the powerful to the powerless, so that we powerless are only more intensely aware of our powerlessness. The expected result is that we will gladly grant even greater dominion over our lives to those whose thirst for power knows no bounds.
I have always enjoyed traveling on business. It was the best part of my job. I find now that I no longer want to go, not out of fear of somebody trying to deprive me of my life in some futile poltical gesture, but because the sense of dread of being subjected to the capricious whims of jack-booted authority and the sense of grief I feel over the further loss of our liberty at our own hands. This cure is worse than the disease. How can I save my children from the terror we are beginning to afflict on ourselves?
B-747, my sympathies are with you. I don't know that I could be as calm as your message makes you appear. If I were you, I'd be all over the media, my elected representatives, Delta mangement, and anybody else that would listen. I shudder to think what the next few years are going to be like if this hysteria continues...
God bless us all,
Boatman in ATL
Sep 17, 2001, 3:44 pm
#21
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: San Francisco, California
Programs: UA 1K 2MM, AA CK 2MM, DL DM 1MM, WN CP, AS MVP, B6 Mosaic3, Marriott Titanium Lftm, Hyatt GLB
Posts: 943
Interesting experience. In no way do I justify the Border Patrol's actions, but I would have gone easy on the attitude in your place because these guys are in no mood to be rational right now. I have been on the receiving end of such power trips myself (from Chicago's finest). Amadou Diallou happened in THIS country, and at a time when things were relatively normal. At any other time, I would be steaming mad. However, we are in unusual circumstances -- the Vice President disclosed that the military had authorization to shoot down civilian aircraft if necessary, for crying out loud -- and I would imagine certain freedom would be suspended.
I was talking to someone yesterday who mentioned that the FBI boarded a plane at PHL and pulled off a Pakistani acquaintance of a friend of theirs -- on his way to college here, in the US for the first time in his life. The poor 18 year old kid was frightened out of his wits. The agents were courteous, and asked for phone numbers of every place he had stayed at in the last two weeks. They held the plane for the kid, but he wasn't the most popular guy on board when he was let back on...
I was talking to someone yesterday who mentioned that the FBI boarded a plane at PHL and pulled off a Pakistani acquaintance of a friend of theirs -- on his way to college here, in the US for the first time in his life. The poor 18 year old kid was frightened out of his wits. The agents were courteous, and asked for phone numbers of every place he had stayed at in the last two weeks. They held the plane for the kid, but he wasn't the most popular guy on board when he was let back on...
Sep 18, 2001, 11:38 am
#22
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Programs: AA EXP and Lifetime Gold, UA LifetMarriott Lifetime Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,006
I read this thread yesterday at work. When I went home, TV news reported an Egyptian merchant was murdered at his grocery store, which is not far from my house. The motive was apparently a hate crime because no money was stolen from his cashier.
This is Los Angeles. Compared to Iowa or Chicago where I used to live, it is very multicultural diverse. I would never think this would happen in my neighborhood, but it did.
My Indian friend told me someone was cursing at him at USC parking lot. He is far from Middle Eastern looking, nor did he wear any turban, which reminds me another tragedy that an Indian man who wore a turban was shot to death in Arizona.
Profiling is wrong. We didn't see Causcasian male were profiling after Oklahoma bombing, why do we profile Middle Easterners now?
Hate and ignorance seperate us, not unite us.
(Edited for spelling errors)
[This message has been edited by Bookexp (edited 09-18-2001).]
This is Los Angeles. Compared to Iowa or Chicago where I used to live, it is very multicultural diverse. I would never think this would happen in my neighborhood, but it did.
My Indian friend told me someone was cursing at him at USC parking lot. He is far from Middle Eastern looking, nor did he wear any turban, which reminds me another tragedy that an Indian man who wore a turban was shot to death in Arizona.
Profiling is wrong. We didn't see Causcasian male were profiling after Oklahoma bombing, why do we profile Middle Easterners now?
Hate and ignorance seperate us, not unite us.
(Edited for spelling errors)
[This message has been edited by Bookexp (edited 09-18-2001).]
Sep 18, 2001, 12:51 pm
#23
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 462
Perhaps your story illustrates the dangers of hurriedly placing the untrained and unsupervised in positions of authority. The border patrol agents may have come straight off of our southern border where they are allowed wide latitude in their treatment of their quarry.
Hopefully, as things settle down, the situation will improve.
It must have been a terrible day.
Hopefully, as things settle down, the situation will improve.
It must have been a terrible day.
Sep 18, 2001, 9:15 pm
#24
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Mississauga, ON
Posts: 89
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by aw:
All of a sudden this has become a witch hunt for all Arab or olive skinned people. What's next? Latin people?</font>
All of a sudden this has become a witch hunt for all Arab or olive skinned people. What's next? Latin people?</font>
Profiling is useless. My wife has blonde hair and blue eyes, and if she took off her hijab (Islamic head scarf), it would be impossible to tell that she's Muslim. And from the pictures I've seen of the supposed terrorists, none of them look like "Islamic fundamentalists" with long beards, etc...
Sikhs have been attacked (and even killed in one case) by ignorant racists. I wonder if the people profiling at airports are any more enlightened...?
Sep 18, 2001, 9:35 pm
#25
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posts: 432
I was greatly saddened to read your report. A friend of mine who is Puerto Rican told me today that her brother has had obscenities screamed at him by people assuming he was Arab. Is it really a small minority of people who are this ignorant? Or is the problem greater? Polls show that 49% of Americans think that all Arabs, including US citizens, should be forced to carry special ID cards. I thought we were better than the Nazis and their yellow stars. Times of crisis really do bring out the true nature of people. I am deeply wounded and gravely disappointed by the ignorance, hysteria, and hate shown by my fellow Americans.
[This message has been edited by robinhood (edited 09-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by robinhood (edited 09-18-2001).]
Sep 19, 2001, 1:27 pm
#26
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posts: 1,310
I see absolutely no reason for the Border patrol agent's "attitude" in this situation..telling him that you would like to use the other line because it is shorter and you are a Medallion member is NOT giving him any attitude, IMO. I would guess that this agent is an ...**** every day.
Earlier this year I had to go through a metal detector at the local traffic court/small claims court. It kept going off even after I had pulled out my change & keys. They then wanted me to put my wallet through the metal detector. I complied (even though I thought they were idiots for asking). Then they wanted to use the wand on me and to LEAVE my wallet many feet away at the metal detector. At that point, I had had it and told them no. That's when I got the "stop giving us this attitude or you're going to jail" crap. For not letting them keep my wallet ten feet away from me? You've got to be joking; I was entering a third-rate courthouse, not the White House..Unfortunately, there are jerks wearing badges that should never be..
And that's why I believe B747-437B's story 100%..and I'm just an almost-middle-aged white guy..As has been already pointed out, there's a classy way to ask questions and the totally out-of-line way this jerk did (plus the jerks in the baording area)..
Earlier this year I had to go through a metal detector at the local traffic court/small claims court. It kept going off even after I had pulled out my change & keys. They then wanted me to put my wallet through the metal detector. I complied (even though I thought they were idiots for asking). Then they wanted to use the wand on me and to LEAVE my wallet many feet away at the metal detector. At that point, I had had it and told them no. That's when I got the "stop giving us this attitude or you're going to jail" crap. For not letting them keep my wallet ten feet away from me? You've got to be joking; I was entering a third-rate courthouse, not the White House..Unfortunately, there are jerks wearing badges that should never be..
And that's why I believe B747-437B's story 100%..and I'm just an almost-middle-aged white guy..As has been already pointed out, there's a classy way to ask questions and the totally out-of-line way this jerk did (plus the jerks in the baording area)..
Sep 19, 2001, 9:54 pm
#27
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: DFW, AA, Hilton
Posts: 16,692
What happened to B747 more than saddened me; it upset me extremely. It is exactly at a time like this that we don't let people in power to exploit a tragic situation to chip away at our personal liberties and respect for each other's freedoms.
It sounds easy to say "I'll accept a little less freedom for more safety", but there is no guarantee when the measures aren't designed correctly and the enforcers aren't doing their jobs well.
Remember too that once we accept certain loss of personal liberties, it will be an uphill battle to get it back. That's when the terrorists have really won. They will have turned our country into a divisive one just like theirs.
It sounds easy to say "I'll accept a little less freedom for more safety", but there is no guarantee when the measures aren't designed correctly and the enforcers aren't doing their jobs well.
Remember too that once we accept certain loss of personal liberties, it will be an uphill battle to get it back. That's when the terrorists have really won. They will have turned our country into a divisive one just like theirs.
Sep 20, 2001, 8:10 am
#28
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Posts: 273
Unfortunately, it looks like once wasn't enough for Delta.
http://www.kmol.com/news/topstory/st...tent_id=659442
Edited to add that he missed his brother's wedding because of the incident.
[This message has been edited by ht_redneck (edited 09-20-2001).]
http://www.kmol.com/news/topstory/st...tent_id=659442
Edited to add that he missed his brother's wedding because of the incident.
[This message has been edited by ht_redneck (edited 09-20-2001).]
Sep 20, 2001, 1:50 pm
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,656
I'm not usually a Mike Luckovich fan, but I think this one strikes a chord close to home for me.
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opi.../mike_0920.gif
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opi.../mike_0920.gif