CC chargeback because ticket conditions not listed?
 

I bought a ticket a few months ago, and the website (non-US airline for whom English was their 3rd language) said there would be a fee for a refund on my ticket, without specifying how much. I did end up needing a refund, and was subsequently told I'd only get 50% of the price back! Since there was no warning of this beforehand (I went back and checked), I have initiated a chargeback with my CC company. CC company's CSR states that if the exact penalty isn't specified, I should be able to get the entire amount back. I have screen shots to prove that no part of the website in question (I'm not naming it here until this is decided by the CC company, lest they fix it and say it was always that way) shows the penalty, so I should be set as far as evidence goes.

Anyone have experience with this type of situation? Any pointers? It's a good credit card, and I've been a good customer, but I'm just concerned that past travelers who try to get out of a truly nonrefundable ticket with a chargeback may have prejudiced the CC companies about this.

If my chargeback is denied, can I expect to get lousy service from the airline? Or turned away at the gate?

Confused.

They stated there would be a fee.

When they charged you the fee you don't want to pay it.

Yes the fee is high, but they never said it was high or low, and you never asked.

The credit card company may back you up on this to be nice, but I don't see how they can state what an airline in another country has to post for their refund policy.

I honestly would not expect you to get the chargeback, I don't think you have any claim to it, but the credit card companies have been very good at siding with the customer and not even allowing the merchants a chance to approve or deny chargebacks lately.

On the possibly very large assumption that the CSR has it right, I would think you'll win and deserve to win as well. If the credit card company has, as part of its terms and conditions with its merchants, that they must reveal all penalties up front, and the airline has not, you deserve a refund. The fact that you did not ask how much the penalty was is neither here nor there, imho.

I'm inclined to agree with turtlemichael here (who'd have guessed? =)

Regarding cordelli's question about whether the CC company can dictate policy to the airline, I think the CC company can indeed tell merchants that they have to be fully upfront with customers or lose their defense against chargebacks. To clarify my original posting, this airline does have an American presence and is selling tickets in America under its own name -- albeit with some apparent gaps in knowledge of our market. I'm not applying American rules to business dealings overseas, although I realize my original posting may have made it sound that way.

If I set up shop in Japan [not the country in question BTW], I can reasonably expect that I'm playing by Japanese rules in doing so. If I don't understand the Japanese rules and make a mistake, that's my own fault -- not the customer's. Same thing here, IMHO.

If it is in the T&C, by all means, protest the charge. ^ to the CC and :td: to the retailer with ambiguous/unspecified charges.

BTW, what bank issues your CC? I haven't noticed that clause in the T&C of any of my cards.

Man I need to get this card!

Cheers,

Well I can tell you that there have been times when i book a ticket, the change fee costs close to as much as (or more than) the ticket itself, so without knowing the dollar amounts involved, one cannot make any judgments as to whether the fee is unreasonable:

if the fare was $1500 and you lose $750 that might be unreasonable
if the fare was $100 and you lose $50 that might be reasonable
if the fare was $40 and you lose $40 that might be reasonable

^

why didn't you ask what the fee was up front?

He shouldn't have to ask. It should be specified up front. (In addition to "asking" a website being problematical.). If his CC will stand behind him, go for it. Stand up for all us little guys!

The fare was just over $1000, and I was told I'd be losing around $500. Depending on how one reads their rules (i.e., whether tax is refunded), the loss could be from $350 to $700.

And yeah, I didn't initially expect this to be free. A penalty of $100, maybe even $200, would have struck me as the price of doing business. But $500's ludicrous. I had politely requested a supervisor so I could discuss this, but was unable to reach one. I sent an email to their customer service desk, as the airline requested, but received no answer. So Flyingbrick, you hit the nail on the head about asking for help. I was informed that the American operation is "reservations only" and that to reach customer service, I'd have to make an international call to the airline's home country. Hmm, I wonder if this is also what they'll tell MasterCard?

The clause is not in the T&C of my card, but it's in the T&C of the standard MasterCard terms for merchants. At least in theory, this should apply to any MasterCard.

I spent 4 years working in the credit card dispute/chargeback department for a bank. Shaggy_mutt is correct, it is the Visa & Mastercard rules and regulations that apply to the merchants. It has been a few years since I worked in the industry, but when I did, travel related disputes (airline, car rental, hotel) charges were always harder to chargeback, as the rules generally seemed to favor the merchant. Also, foreign merchants were generally harder to charge back, as the international rules and regulations were different than the domestic ones. I would not be suprised if you end up stuck with the fee, as the fact that there was a cancellation fee was disclosed, even if the exact amount or percentage was not. Depending on how much money your credit card company makes off of you, if you continue to push the issue, they may consider writing the $500 off as a courtesy to you, but YMMV on that one.

I'll be checking up on my cards' T&C. I really dislike the wishy-washy terms that many travel sellers provide. It's hard enough just getting them to honor the explicit terms.

Thanks for the feedback; sounds like you know this scene pretty well. I doubt I'm -that- good of a customer that they'd write off $500 for me, and although it's not my choice, I'd hate for them to do that anyway. It's not that I want to punish the airline, but rather that I strongly suspect they'll be able to sell the seats again -- IOW I think they'll still make a nice profit on these seats if they take them back, so I'd hate for my CC company to take a $500 loss on them.

One question for you: what determines whether international or domestic rules apply? The airline is a foreign company, but the place of purchase is marked "New York" on my statement, apparently because of their American operation. Does this mean that the company is considered domestic for these purposes?

Oh, and since you've worked in the industry, what is considered good evidence of the specific terms not being disclosed? I printed out screenshots of the purchase process (up to the point where I'd have to submit a credit card); is there anything else I should include?

Thanks again!

Since the place of purchase is showing as New York on your statement, I would presume that this would be treated as a domestic charge. I still feel that Mastercard regs would side with the merchant in your case, they did disclose a fee, and you chose to continue with the transaction knowing that a fee would be charged should you cancel. The fact that you did not know the specific fee will likely not matter much in the chargeback arbitration process. The merchant's bank rep will probably argue that you should have inquired about the fee before completing the transaction. I dont mean to sound harsh, but in my experience, "I didn't know" is often not enough to make a chargeback stick. :( I have had a few 'fights' between the card issuer (the bank that your card is with) and the aquirer (the merchant's bank that processes thier credit card transactions) can get quite ugly! You can certainly try disputing, and hopefully the person that handles your case will be willing to get creative to fight for you. The first step would be for you to contact the merchant, and request that they charge a smaller fee / issue more credit. Document your attempt to work with the merchant, and provide it to your credit card company. If you cannot reach the merchant, then make sure to include an explanation of how you attempted to contact the merchant.

Yeah, I'm still on that step. I've already prepared the chargeback paperwork, but in the interest of finding a peaceful solution, I called back yet again on Monday. Talked to a bunch of different CSR's, one of whom apparently wrote to airline headquarters to ask them. I'm not holding my breath, but at least I can tell MasterCard I tried. I've gotten so many different stories from this airline's CSRs that I have no idea whom to believe, although I get the general sense that I'm being delayed in hopes I'll just go away. Well... Not for $500, guys. =)

BTW, your comments seem to assume that I went ahead and requested the 50% refund. I'm afraid to do that because it seems to me that doing so would weaken my case (i.e., "We told him that he'd lose 50%, and he said to go ahead anyway"). Will it hurt my case if I hold onto the tickets until I know if I can get my money back? Or do I have to commit now to a refund, however small, and then hope that the bank gets the rest back?