Caution:Trying to "game" the system
 

From the USA today online travel section today:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/


Be aware about buying refundable tickets to get thru security/bumps..

"Two city police officers who patrolled Philadelphia International Airport for more than five years are being probed for allegedly buying refundable tickets on numerous sold-out flights. Officials say the officers then racked up nearly $10,000 worth of airline vouchers as compensation after being bumped from the sold-out flights. “They would show up for the flight, get bumped, get a round-trip flight credit and also get a refund," US Airways spokesman Morgan Durrant tells The Philadelphia Inquirer (free registration).

Though such a practice would seem to be a legal way to take advantage of both the airline’s rules and its practice of overselling seats, the officers could face trouble on two fronts. First, there’s a question whether the officers made the travel arrangements and changes while on duty. And second, Edward Ohlbaum, professor of law at Temple University, tells the Inquirer that “the behavior might lead a prosecutor to consider theft by deception charges.” Ohlbaum explains that Pennsylvania crime statutes define “deception” as creating a false impression as to one's intentions, the paper writes.

US Airways officials and “two sources familiar with the matter” tell the Inquirer they think the practice had been going on for almost a year. Airline employees apparently became suspicious during last year’s busy Fourth of July weekend, claiming that the men showed up with refundable-fare tickets for two separate oversold flights on July 3. The men received vouchers –- and a refund -– for the first flight. But the Inquirer’s “sources” say a US Airways employee recognized one of the men when he allegedly tried to get bumped from the second oversold flight. The employee denied his request to be bumped from that flight. “With that outcome, the officers did not board the plane and got refunds on their tickets 45 minutes later,” the paper writes. "

I think that the issue here is that they were doing it on city time while working as LEOs at the airport. Additionally, they were doing this to earn free tickets by getting bumped.

There's a big difference between what these guys were doing and simply buying a ticket to get past security.

Aye, except the Temple Law guy seems to think that there is a 2nd case to be made, that purchase of a ticket implies intention on flying...how does this difer from someone who just uses it to get thru. They both are deceptive in the same way...purchaser has no intention of using the ticket for what it was designed for, to fly.

If they prosicute on this, it could be precident setting.

Did you read the article?

"And second, Edward Ohlbaum, professor of law at Temple University, tells the Inquirer that “the behavior might lead a prosecutor to consider theft by deception charges.” Ohlbaum explains that Pennsylvania crime statutes define “deception” as creating a false impression as to one's intentions, the paper writes."

Tell me, when somebody buys a refundable ticket, passes through security, and then cancels the ticket, where is the theft occuring?

The guys are morons for scamming VDB compensation. But there's no way a ruling here is going to stop anybody from buying a refundable ticket for the purposes of getting airside. Exactly how would the lack of intent for flying be proven in a court of law in such a case?

On The Clock, A Crime, Off Duty, Simply Sharp Practice
 

I can see substantial violations of the city's employment policies. Doing this sort of thing while "on the clock" certainly qualifies as a firing offense.

But were they off duty, or were the perpetrators "just plain folks", I'm not sure that a 'crime" would have been been committed, at least one in which the wheels of Justice are going to do much turning. Clearly, when the airline sells and continues to sell tickets on a flight for which all the seats have already been sold, it is risking financial exposure. Overbooking is a crap shoot based on odds calculated on the airline's experience on an individual route, time period or flight.

If you or I show up at the airport and make an evaluation that a flight is oversold, but a ticket and claim the compensation for a bump, that's not a crime. In essence, you and I would be betting against the airline's experience, risking our refundable ticket price, but not really much risk, since, were a seat to be available, simply not boarding and claiming the refund.

It's not a crime to do it twice or on multiple occasions, sharp practice, certainly, but unlikely to violate criminal statutes UNLESS (and here's the magic tripwire!) someone with the airline was cooperating in the deception, actually passing on info on over-booked/oversold flights, therefore creating a conspiracy to defraud, and actual fraud when the tickets was redeemed for compensation. This case sure sounds as if the police officers were engaging in the acts alleged during duty time, and seem likely to have had an accomplice with access to booking status.

What something no one has mentioned (perhaps it is too obvious) is that this is too easy a way for people with evil (not theft/deception, but evil) intentions to get past security loopholes.

But I do agree the issue at hand is that they were scamming VDB compensation, but airlines are to blame as well for not having any mechanism in place to prevent someone who receive VDB compensation from obtaining a refund for their ticket at the same time. I'm sure the two men who were caught were not the only ones that thought of it. Can I see a show of hands?

Of course not. But then again, I never thought an airline would bump a full-fare (or close to it) passenger.

Then by the same logic if you purchase a round-trip ticket for a 1-way flight since it is cheaper at times and only travel on the 1st leg you can be prosecuted?

If they did it on duty then they need to have the book thrown at them, if not it is a problem with the way the airlines do business!

I would think, based on the article, that the "theft by deception" could be invoked here. Not that the state is likely to waste the money to prosecute.

Oh, no, no. That's what the TSA is there for! :rolleyes:

Probably not an issue of being bumped -- more likely just the 1st at the podium when VDB's were requested.

At a minimum, the police department should dock their pay, fire them, and get the airline credits as they were "earned" while on duty.

Regarding the comment earlier about the airlines being at fault for giving an immediate refund.... I don't think any of us want to have to wait 8-10 weeks for a refund to post -- let alone the fact there are people out there that do not have credit cards and certainly can't afford to wait for an airline to cut a check.

All this said -- wasn't this a posting about US -- not UA? Maybe another home is needed for the post.

Perhaps by denying that seat to someone who wants to fly (and thus "stealing" the fare from the airline). But I think that the VDB compensation is probably what he really intends to address.

No, the reason I posted here was because many people on this board have suggested this method to get around security. Yes I read the article, and I see that buying a ticket for anything other than the intention to fly (getting DB credits, access to sterile terminal...) regardless of the reason is just an extension of what the Temple guy claims is fraud.

While I doubt it has been tested to the point where a precident has been set, if I were one who abused the system in this way for ANY gain, other than to fly, I would keep an eye out for how/if this gets prosecuted. Who is to say that the TSAairlines wouldn't use any rulings to strengthen their hands? I mean tax evasion for Al Capone was a reach, but it worked, mail fraud for Tom Cruise in "The Firm"...in a litigious society, people will push the boundries of laws and precidents to serve them...consumers do it, companies and goverments can too.

One simple way around this is for airlines to instruct GAs not to give VDBs to customers travelling on refundable fares. Even though UA processes it's lists by status, etc, it also defends its process of selecting volunteers as "not an entitlement" per its own customer relations letters. They could just tell the GAs to skip customers using refundable fares unless there were not enough volunteers.

IMHO, people with evil intentions probably aren't going to be looking to get a refund. They can just buy the cheapest non-refundable fare and still get through security.
Also, the same can normally be accomplished (i.e. just getting airside) using Photoshop.

Since not United-specific, am moving to Travel Buzz

cblaisd
Moderator, United

Sauce for the goose
 

Could not a case be made, under the lax "intent to defraud" definition that apparently applies in this jurisdiction, that the airline is criminally liable to a passenger to whom they sell a ticket for a flight that is already full? Arguably, the airline does not intend for that particular passenger to fly, since objectively, the flight is full. Does the answer change depending on how badly the flight is overbooked, and what chance the passenger reasonably stands of getting on that flight? Or is all forgiven when the airline asks for passengers to volunteer to be bumped?

As it was mentioned before, I wonder how easy it would be for the GA to check the computer to see if the passenger getting the VDB has been issued other VDBs using refundable tickets. If this is the case, then the GA can refuse to issue another one.
Since I can check the NWA site to see my VDBs, it can't be too difficult for other airlines.

HJ

Before everyone goes too far off the deep end on the "theft by deception" legal issues, let's remember that we're basing the entire thing of the word of some professor. They are not necessarily the most reliable sources and sometimes just enjoy seeing their names in print.

But on this occasion, the issue he raises is definitely worth considering.

If you buy a ticket and you get bumped (vol or invol) and compensated because of the disruption to your travel plans, that's fine. But if you buy a ticket for the sole purpose of collecting bump compensation, when you actually had no intention ever to fly to begin with, you're definitely on dodgy ground.

Whether "dodgy ground" translates into criminality, and whether anyone could ever prove (let alone prove to the criminal standard) that you had transgressed the criminal law, are two entirely separate issues. They might mean that you would get away with it. But it seems to me that the issue raised by the professor, on its own, is something which should be considered - he shouldn't pooh-poohed quite so fast.

If they had not bought the ticket, maybe the airline could sell it to someone else and really make a profit. :td: :td: :td:

If you run the bussiness, I think you would not appreciate that kind of behavior either.

I *hate* to admit...
 

what seems so patently obvious to several dozen other posters, but,
"buying refundable tickets on numerous sold-out flights" has me completely puzzled.
HOW, pray tell, can one buy a ticket on a sold-out flight? If there are no seats, there are no seats, and I assume one cannot throw money (even at a UA TA!) and say, "Oh, that's okay, just sell me a ticket anyway." :D
Otherwise, if one buys a refundable ticket and then voluntarily (or in-) is denied boarding, where's the illegality in that? Anyway, how can one tell a flight is about to be sold out and/or be guaranteed to be denied boarding? From my experience I've only volunteered not to fly, never been "forced," regardless of tix type.
If my lack of understanding makes me out as incredibly naive, dense, or careless, so be it; someone please PM me. :rolleyes:

What makes buying a refundable ticket to get past security fraud? Fraud, according to my Barron's law dictionary is "intentional deception resulting in injury to another." What injury occurs?

Airlines are prepared to oversell (sale more seats than exist) based on the expected number of no-shows. Some airlines are better at managing this than others. They have to allow for compensation in event too many pax show up in their attempts at maximising revenue.

Full or oversold flights aren't hard to find - using common sense, experience and availability tools. What is harder, but some make an art form of, is finding ones that are most likely to require bumps specially for the purpose of getting comp.

I don't believe that the fraud refers to the "getting past security" part. The fraud that is being referred to, and the resultant injury, is to the airline as it prevents them from selling the same ticket to someone that does intend to use it.
I must add, however, that all the talk about the airline being able to sell it to someone else is, IMHO, irrelevant. The airline doesn't care where the $$$ comes from, after all, a dollar is a dollar and if they are selling a ticket that is fully refundable, then they must have an expectation that a percentage of those tickets will be refunded. Whether or not malicious intent could be proven remains to be seen. I suspect, however, that the publicity surrounding an airline that chooses to pursue a criminal complaint would not be good publicity and the airline would be hesitant to push the issue.

Give me a break, if the airlines weren't engaging in the the constant game playing of roulette-based ticket pricing, overbooking flights, and shuffling around unsuspecting travelers for the lowest possible compensation, this "scam" never would have arisen.

I guess it's completely irrelevant that I as a paying passenger do "not appreciate" the behavior of airlines in selling me a ticket that may not represent an actual seat for various reasons, obscenely inflating the price for a last minute ticket, concocting all kinds of cockamamie anti-consumer change restrictions, constantly cancelling and delaying flights with impunity, and in general being an uncooperative business partner? Yeah, that's irrelevant. But, one guy figures out a loophole in the rules that the airlines themselves set up and enforce, and that's cause for True Crime Accusations.... Come on....

Not trying to get into a debate about security screening, but the "ticketed passengers only through security" rule is not to prevent evil doers from getting airside. It is to expedite the screening process. How long would it take if every ticketed passenger brought their spouse, kids, parents, etc. to see them off?

If an evil person wants to get airside, they will just buy a ticket. I don't see too many people using the refund game to get airside, plus I would think airlines might catch onto an individual who constantly buys a ticket, checks in, then cancels.

Puh-leeze....the airlines deal with this all the time by overbooking. It's the basic precept of yield management. They know there'll be a certain %age of no-shows.

Injury is the scam the cops were pulling.

I have an important engagement that can't be changed (friend's wedding).

I take the bump. UA is only offering it because it's in their interest. They are grateful (in all my experience).

The deal is done. We both "walk away".

I am lucky enough to have a refundable ticket. I am no longer captive, as I would be with a non-refundable ticket. I get a refund.

End of story. Prove my motive.

To me, it's like the nested ticketing. Prove that the dots are connected. Prove my motive.

It is no crime to get airside without flying.
When I'm on a business trip it happens quite often that I have to return to my office and either take a later flight or cancel the ticket. Where should there be a crime?
I often check in for all the later flights on a particular day to be sure I make it on a plane... Is that a crime as well???
It would be a crime to get airside, buy duty free, return ourside without boarding the a/c and requesting a refund. But there the crime does not concern the getting airside and return but the tax issue when you buy duty free without leaving the country (or the trade area).
You only run into the risk that airline staff will recognise you and deny you the vouchers or bring you into paperwork for the refund....

I also took two bumps in succession IAD-LAS. The same GA was just as grateful the second time. Did I never intend to take the second departure? (I would have taken a third bump, too.)

Businesses do this all the time for their employees who may or may not have to go to a meeting and the decision isn't made until the very last minute.

There is no way to prove someone was just buying a full-refundable ticket for airside access unless the person confesses. Were I being grilled about refunding tickets, I'd tell the person questioning me 1)there's a reason fully-refundable tickets are sold (and are expensive) and 2)to go do something biologically obscene to themselves as it's none of their business why or how I choose to do my traveling.