A comment on the financial resources of US physicians: physicians are relatively underpaid, when you consider the cost most invest in their education (approaching $200,000 at a public school - you can't work part-time in medical school so they need living expenses, and you need a car to get to all the clinics & hospitals you're expected to go to), plus the fact that for 4 years of medical school you completely forgo any salary, then for 3 years of residency you get paid enough to live on ($40,000 or so) and not enough if you have to start paying back your loans, which thanks to changes in the laws, more people have to do during their residency). Many also continue on into advanced training (another 3 or more years), during which they get paid slightly more than during their residency.

Once in practice, a physician often puts in 50-60 hours at the office, including being on-call, and another few hours at a minimum at home, reviewing charts and keeping up on the literature relevant to their field. Some doctors don't do as good a job on this, but others are quite diligent.

I know people with 4 year BAs and nothing more who make 120,000-150,000K which is about what most physicians make. Lawyers, after only 3 years of law school, can get positions making 75,000 - 80,000 and this quickly increases if the law firm finds their work to be good (and if the lawyer is putting in 50+ hours/week).

I'm not saying that doctors are living at poverty status, but when you consider all they invest in their education, a forgone salary for 7-10 years, and the hours they put into their job once they get into private practice, it's not a huge amount. These people are quite intelligent and had they wanted, they could have gone the corporate route and have been making far more than they make as a physician, without all the years of forgoing a decent salary. (Now, compared to graduate students and post-docs, and what they can expect to make after just as rigourous and time-demanding of an education to train them to work in a university setting, physicians are VERY well paid. Many top-notch university professors who regularly put in 60+ hours a week into their teaching and research are not making even $80,000, even at top research institutions. As they move higher up the professor rank, their salary increases, but it takes a while.)

Yeah, I definitely know PhD students who work as hard as med students, except that they are in the doctorate program for five or six years instead of four. And some who don't.

And then PhDs usually have to do a postdoc, which for some people can be as demanding than a residency.

I'm a PhD student though and I personally wouldn't compare my level of work to that of my MD student friends, but it just varies by the lab and institution you're in.

[QUOTE=Lindisfarne]A comment on the financial resources of US physicians:

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I know people with 4 year BAs and nothing more who make 120,000-150,000K which is about what most physicians make. Lawyers, after only 3 years of law school, can get positions making 75,000 - 80,000 and this quickly increases if the law firm finds their work to be good (and if the lawyer is putting in 50+ hours/week).
QUOTE]


My comment about financial means wasn't in regard to US MD's vs. US non-MD's. It was US M.D.s versus danish MD's.. My wife has slightly less debt than if she had trained in the US, but all of the other hassles-- For this she is paid roughly the same as a high school teacher in Denmark, around 40,000 USD. (of which roughtly 45% is then paid in taxes) note that she has completed residency and is a 'full fledged' doctor doing anesthesiology.

Having looked at the compensation schemes, I can confidently asswert that in the long term, it would be FAR more lucrative for us to relocate to the US- even taking into account the high costs that US doctors shoulder for expenses/ insurance...

can we keep this thread civil, please? No personal attacks will be allowed. Thanks

--richard, moderator

True for academic physicians/researchers and residents, however, not quite accurate for physicians in private practice. In my experience, specialists in private practice in the US will make, on average, anywhere from $200K - $400K annually (and some an awful lot more). Having said that, the vast majority of MD/DO's I know never went into medicine for the money. By the way, this is one area I know something about as my firm manages over 125 practices nationwide :)

As to the OP, please remember that MD stands for Medical Doctor not Minor Deity :D

add a year they take between med school and UG

OTOH, get a BS in engineering and hit the ground running :-:

dont flame me :D

I agree that most physicians do alright for themselves. The problem now is with the inflated tuition costs- I love my quarter million dollar debt load. It definitely factors in to my career planning/specialty choice. Nonetheless I love what I'm doing and couldn't remotely think of doing anything else.

For now though I'll enjoy travelling on my student loan money and occasionally indulging in some premium cabin tickets. Everyone chooses to spend their money differently, I guess I like to use it for travel. :)

At one of our annual meetings a few years ago, there was an interesting presentation (unfortunately I can't find a references). It compared the relative economic outcomes of a neurosurgeon (one of the highest compensated medical specialties) to an attorney, a stock broker, and a truck driver. It used published average incomes, educational costs, and interest rates for investments and educational debts.

Basically, assuming a truck driver starts working after high school, a stock broker goes to college and then starts working, and an attorney goes thru law school, then works an associate for a few years and then as a partner. The neurosurgeon goes thru med school, goes thru 7 years of training, and then works in practice.

Here's the key, each of the 4 have to live at the same expense level as the neurosurgeon at each year, investing the rest of earnings (so, the truck driver lives on what a college student lives on for 4 yrs and invests the rest, etc.). This really isn't realistic, of course, but it does show how much deferred gratification is involved.

At age 45, the truck driver ends up about $1,000,000 ahead. The stock broker and the attorney end up about even. The neurosurgeon ends up about $1,000,000 behind.

I'd like to see the assumptions on that. The truck driver has the obvious advantage of making money from 18-34 -- years in which the neurosurgeon is making nothing or close to nothing and piling up debt. Still, $1 million ahead?

Of course, the neurosurgeon can expect about 20 more years of very high salary at that point.

LOL....same goes for investment bankers or trash collectors, But just knowing you are there in case of an emergency is a wonderful feeling to the crew.

It generally involves assuming some type of historical market return (i.e. 10%) with savings invested in stocks and dividends/interest reinvested for compounding. Compounding for 16 years can put someone well ahead. That is of course assuming the 18 year old truck driver is wise enough to invest and has the stomach to ride out the swings of a 100% stock portfolio.

These types of examples usually illustrate the power of compounding over years and that starting very early in life is best. Unfortunately youth is generally wasted on the young..

Darn right! That's what I did :D Plus, one advantage is that if I choose to get my Master's (or any other degree), my company will pay for my tuition. Actually, I think most major corporations will foot your tuition to a certain degree. Hmm...I wonder if it's too late for me to go into medical school?

I was at my sister's med school graduation last week (University of Illinois - Chicago) and I just realized that a flood of inexperienced residents are going to be entering hospitals nationwide. I'd better stay healthy :)

..........

And having a MD PhD means you get no respect from either group!

Funny that a lot of my PhD friends will call themselves Doctor ... a lot more often than I do.

As a MD, help out whenever you can and it will be appreciated. That's what really count.

Anyone ever run into a JD who calls themselves "Dr."?