I for one applaude this course of action.

Stick your nose in someone else's business, risk the breaking of said nose!

Unless the pax is trying to light his shoe fuse... BUT OUT ! :D

I don't know what airlines you fly, but I've never, not once, not ever heard an announcement requiring seats to remain upright until the seatbelt sign is turned off on any flight I've taken in the U.S., in Europe, in Africa or in Asia. I've flown on every major U.S. carrier, as well Lufthansa, Air France, TAP, EasyJet, KLM, Iberia, Royal Air Maroc, Al Italia, Cathay Pacific, Air China, China Southern, China Eastern, and Dragon Air (and I'm sure there are some others I just can't recall at the moment).

That's hundreds, probably thousands, of flights, yet not one announcement.

As I said, I do it on wheels up. The only instruction I've ever had is that seatbacks must be upright for takeoff. Once we've taken off, i.e. we're in he air, I can recline.

And, of course, the FAR you quoted doesn't say anything of the sort. Here's what it says:

"Except as provided in paragraphs (e)(1) through (e)(3) of this section, no certificate holder may take off or land an airplane unless each passenger seat back is in the upright position."

Seatbacks up for takeoff and landing. Nothing about keeping them up until the pilot turns off the seatbelt light.

Sorry, but I think you're wrong and, if you were to tell me to raise my seat until the seatbelt light is turned off, I'd politely tell you, "no way."

always
 

I'm the self-appointed cop aboard the plane. I tell people when to shut off their phones. I kick people out of the FC restrooms. I grab people's arms when they touch the back of my seat and give them a nasty look.

What not one person has said here is at what moment is the actual cut off point. When is a plane not taking off any more?

And when isn't it landing?


As the ruling is also that passengers must also have seatbelts fastened during take off and landing - why would the timeframe for this be any different?

Sorry, but without a dispositive answer, e.g. from an FA or pilot, it's just opinion and speculation on our part. If you want to keep your seat up until the seatbelt light is extinguished, that's fine, but it's hardly a "rule."

Because different safety concerns are addressed by each. Pilots keep on seatbelt signs until they think it is safe for passengers to get up and walk around. At minimum, things like steep climb to altitude, traffic avoidance and, of course, turbulence (including wake turbulence on occassion) mandate that the light be on, but have nothing to do with whether seats need to be upright (or, more, accurately, "in their upright and locked position").

However, again, this is only opinion and speculation and, obviously, doesn't have the force of a FAR, much less a mandate of courtesy.

FWIW, I looked around the FARs for a definition of "takeoff." Surprisingly, they don't have one. The closest thing I could find was when they were talking about certifying planes and about clearance areas around runways, for example about what happens if an engine fails just as you leave the ground. The limit of what they consider takeoff in that case seems to be 50 feet vertically. There was also one mention of, "Until the flaps are retracted."

Since the FARs don't define it, it's probably up to the airline, or the pilot.

ok, lets look at why we have to keep our seats upright.. its basically to do with the fact that seats are tested and certified in the upright position. They are designed to provide support and minimise injury when in the upright position in the event of a sudden deceleration. Sudden decelerations are most likely to occur when close to the ground or on it, hence the requirement for seat backs to be upright for take-off and landing. If you recline your seat as soon as the wheels are up, that's too soon, as you have not actually left the high risk zone the rules are in place to regulate. Planes have crashed shortly after take-off, (i can think of 4 or 5 incidents in my particular field of flight safety alone). Having your seat reclined is not going to help you or the person behind you survive the crash unscathed

Similarly, electronic equipment is not to be used during take-off and landing. This is signified by the use of the seatbelt sign. So why is the seatbelt sign suitable to signify for one thing that the landing and take-off is over, but not for another? I think you are chosing to interpret what seems like a pretty clear cut rule, because you don't like it.

I'm not aware of any particular formal definition of "take-off" and "landing" and there is considerable degree of overlap between "approach" and "climb-out". Indeed on the data I used to analyse, the two sets of terms were often used interchangeably - if there is one, then I'd say no-one has told most of the pilots submitting the data. Its possible one could define it by who the pilot is speaking to on ATC at the time, but that seems a bit impractical as that may vary country to country and airport to airport, depending upon what is the ATC set up.

I don't believe the iPod and other mp3 players are to be turned off due to "interference" with the airplane's systems. Rather, I believe that it is enforced for the fact that if something goes wrong during takeoff or landing, it is easier to alert the passengers what is wrong and give them instructions, especially emergency instructions including evacuation tactics. If someone is blaring their mp3 player, ignoring the usual dings and announcements that are common to takeoff and landing (such as the we are approaching such and such a city, the weather is blah blah blah...) wouldn't hear a crucial message, it becomes a safety hazard. My guess is that it is more of a safety/liability issue to not be able to hear the FA or Pilot's announcements during the first and last segments of the flight. Just my opinion...

Precisely.... the signs are a guide to seat reclining, nothing more.

And why would Y pax care what happens up front? ;)

Why is it so hard just to follow a few simple instructions and not question the why's and why not's? Afterall, we are only talking a few minutes here that your ipod would actually be turned off......it just makes it a lot less stressful on you and everybody else involved.....we have grown soooo impatient these days. I personally feel that it is just not wanting to accept that someone has asked you to do something that you don't want to do.

Not sure this was regulating someone. But on a recent Southwest flight, the 3s were loading and it appeared that no one was going to sit in my middle seat. So a young woman boards and is told there's no room for her large bag. Being the gent that I try to be, I offered to move my bag from the overhead, shuffle things around a bit and put my briefcase under the middle seat. I wouldn't fit under the aisle seat.

Sure enough, grunge-guy boards in tattered shirt and jeans. Asks if he can sit in the middle seat. I explain that he's welcome to, but there's a briefcase under the seat that shouldn't bother him. Guy tells me to move it. I tell him there's no place to put it since I'd given up the overhead space. Woman I gave the space to offers to let the guy put his bag under her seat. Guy walks away muttering curses at me.

Just another no good deed go unpunished when flying story.

The initial exclusive focus on seatback reclining during take-off is seriously off topic and lacking in thread discipline! :mad:

I do my part to make the world a better place under all circumstances. If a colleague's Post It™ notes are not attached parallel to the edge of the page, I will be sure to admonish, chastise, and correct them when necessary.

If a fellow passenger is so outrageous as to hog the lavatory, a well-timed repeated knocking on the door is an excellent service to the entire cabin. For those who remain for more than fifteen minutes, I've found that they often respond to my "secret technique" of opening locked doors.

I have asserted myself on a flight. A woman in the row infront of me was trying to open the overhead lockers while we were taxiing to terminal 4 at Heathrow so I demanded she sit herself down. I insisted a couple of times before making my feelings on her lack of inteligence pefectly clear to her and then the whole cabin. Of course being stupid she carried on emptying the overhead lockers of her stuff only to wait her turn to exit the plane like everyone else :rolleyes:

That's not correct. You can use cell phones on the Tokyo subway system (except in the area close to elderly/disabled/pregnant/injured seats, where you are supposed to switch it off as it might interfere with pacemakers -- but hardly anyone does it), but you are asked to refrain from talking on them and put them into silent mode (called 'manner mode' in Japanese) because the noise would supposedly inconvenience the other travelers.

If you see people 'switching off their phone' when entering the subway, they are most likely putting it into silent mode.

HTB.

Ok, here comes the pilot answer. Take-off is basically from the time you start the takeoff roll until you are at a certain altitude above the ground. That altitude is not defined. At the place I am flying for right now, it is 500 feet.

Landing is within 300 feet of the ground where I'm flying. Once again the altitude is not specifically defined.

All commercial air carriers must tell passengers when to put their seats upright (for approach and landing). Every airline I've ever flown on does this at the "double-chime" which indicates 10,000 feet above the ground. That is also the altitude at which portable electronic devices must be turned off.

Now switch that to takeoff. There is also a "double-chime" passing 10,000 which indicates PED's may be used. I would say this is also the altitude at which seatbacks can be reclined. This is what I normally do when I'm riding as a passenger.

The seatbelt sign is not used to indicate anything but the seatbelt. There is a specific safety risk that requires you to remain in your seat, but that does not apply to your seatback.

All of that said however, I would still not say anything to someone who did recline after takeoff but below 10,000 feet. For one thing, it's extremely rude. For another thing, PED's are really the most important issue during climbout.

Hope that clears it up.