I'm not a pilot nor do I know the tecnicalities about FAA fuel requirements but in the 6 or 7 exchanges between NW1 and the flight controller, the gist was that NW1 could hold for 15 minutes and not the 30-35 minutes that was in effect. I was just surprised that the flight crew didn't know about the possibility of weather related problems at NRT before they took off and that they might have to take on extra fuel. I am surprised that the "window" was so short and what if Haneda was also having weather related problems? At one point, NW1 was asked whether they wanted to declare an emergency (or something to that effect). Japan is after all an island and isn't there a possibility that the weather could be affecting all the airports within range on the island? I think it would be logical to assume that if there was a real danger that NW1 would have been allowed to jump the queue and land. I wasn't thinking about the actual possibility of the plane running out of fuel and crashing but more of the inconveninece of some of the passengers on the plane missing their connections. I just found it hard to believe that an international flight over water would not have enough fuel for a 1/2 hold when I'm sure we've all been on flights that were in a holding pattern for more than 1/2 an hour. The head wind near Japan has always range from 150 to 200 mph and the airspeed can drop down to below 400 mph everytime I flew from LAX at this time if the year. Anyway, just my two cents worth.

This is a real interesting topic, yet its one that really isn't about United per se. Since it covers a NW flight and a potential issue lots of others might encounter, I'm going to redirect it to a board that will get more general FT users involved (Travel Buzz).


Craig6z
Moderator

Two flights come to mind, re the fuel issue. Several years ago, on a full (362/362) L-1011 from LGW to YYZ. Scheduled as a non-stop, but extremely strong headwinds, plus heavily loaded ac, coupled with a very long take-off roll (it was a hot July day in London), caused the captain to announce midway through the flight that we would make an unsked stop in YUL to take on fuel. The flight had started in MAN, and I don't think they topped up the tanks at LGW.
The other flight was on CP, from LHR to YYZ, a B767, on Y2K day (remember that?) Total pax was 60 (according to the purser), and what should have been at most a seven and a 1/2 hour flight turned into over nine hours because of severe headwinds. Actually, at one point, the captain came on and said that even though we were flying at almost 600 mph, because of the headwinds we were barely making headway. No refueling stop, but I'm sure the fuel load was very light when we finally landed at YYZ.
Neither of these flights was on NWA, but I'm just trying to show what headwinds can do to even the most carefully planned flightplans and fuel loads.

bj-21.

I beg to differ.

As someone who has been flying NW exclusively for more than a decade, I have only had 2 overnight delays due to weather.

Should UA have a hub city like DTW or MSP, how many snow delays will you have?

Again, those are domestic only regulations. Since the flight in question was an international flight to NRT, the regulations are quite different. They include a 10% reserve for the entire cruise fuel, but can get very complicated due to redispatching. Essentially, that is planning a flight to a closer destination (reducing the 10% figure), then redispatching enroute to the actual destination (at which point, the remaining 10% figure is much less).

And declaring minimum fuel does not mean that a further delay will push you into your fuel reserves. It simply means that you can accept no further delay, although you do not need any priority handling. That may or may not have anything to do with the planned reserve fuel, depending on the crew and the situation.

You mean they actually divert airplanes running low on fuel when high in a spiral holding pattern? Seems like it would be far simpler (?) let the affected plane skip to a lower level in the circling pattern.

Either way the pilot would likely be charged with an infraction if he hadn't loade the proper amount of fuel.

Travel tips:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/travel.htm

You can end up having to divert for fuel reasons even if you have loaded the proper amount of fuel onboard. Fuel uplift and use are as much arts as sciences - one of the reasons why you'd always watch your diversion options all the time whilst in flight.

And as for allowing aircraft to "skip" to a lower level in the hold, just one question for you: How woudl you go about deconflicting the aircraft with the low fuel with all the other aircraft in the intermediate levels in the stack below it? Or are you fond of aluminium sandwiches?

Nobody is taking off with less than the required fuel. In fact, you always have at least some amount of extra fuel above the minimum that is legally required for the flight. How much extra fuel will depend on the specifics of the flight, the weather enroute and at the destination and the price of fuel at each of the airports.

As a passenger I can say this. You are kidding us, right?

It's not the panic situation portrayed !
 

Don't worry. The crew would have been wanting to land with their 30 minutes of fuel reserves intact, those are for a real fuel problem. If they couldn't get to their destination with these reserves intact they will divert short, which is what they did here. However there's no harm in ASKING your destination if you can get in first rather than holding, and avoid the diversion. They might have said yes.

Happens not infrequently, all sorts of events conspire to increase fuel consumption (headwinds worse than forecast, lower flight level than expected, etc). If you are over water right to destination you take extra reserves, on the way from Detroit to Tokyo you recalculate all along, you can stop in Sapporo or even Anchorage if things look like they are going awry.

In a real fuel shortage a crew will declare a "Pan", which is an urgency message to ATC, and if things get more serious will declare a "Mayday". They will have in their Standard Operating Procedures at which stage they will do this. As they didn't declare either they were still within their limits.

One of the perils of Channel 9 and having untrained personnel listen in.