Overweight Fliers
Nov 11, 2004, 7:20 am
#31
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Originally Posted by RustyC
Amazing how the knee-jerk reaction of most people is to put all the focus on the individual as to where the problem is centered. What about the airline?
Lest we forget, seat width has been either static or shrinking, even as airlines and aircraft makers know full well that people are getting both taller and wider. An egregious example is the 737-800 series, where seat width was actually reduced to make a bean-counter-pleasing plane (they also tried to get away with too few lavs at first). RJs also tend to be challenged on width. I'm just speaking from personal experience, but it seems Airbus "gets it" better than Boeing.
Lest we forget, seat width has been either static or shrinking, even as airlines and aircraft makers know full well that people are getting both taller and wider. An egregious example is the 737-800 series, where seat width was actually reduced to make a bean-counter-pleasing plane (they also tried to get away with too few lavs at first). RJs also tend to be challenged on width. I'm just speaking from personal experience, but it seems Airbus "gets it" better than Boeing.
Like I said, I agree that the airlines have shrunk the seat width over the years, however the width of most American bottoms has increased in accordance.
You cannot compare a CR-J with a larger plane. They are completely different classes.
Airbus does design their planes differently with other seat configs and sizes. However the builder of the planes is merely doing what has been asked of the airlines, pack more seats on to each plane to make a higher profit.
When plane seats are empty that is lost revenue that can never be made up, just like when a hotel room is empty for the night. If people want the seat sizes to increase they ahould tell the airlines that they will gladly pay twice the price for a seat in exchange that the width be the same size as their Laz-y-Boy recliner at home. But you see, most people want the seat for the cheapest rate going, in turn the airlines has to sell twice as many seats on the same plane, so how do they do that? Reduce the seat widths. It's a catch-22 situation.
Nov 11, 2004, 7:25 am
#32
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Originally Posted by magexpect
SPG-DL, your comments are slowly getting on my nerves.
I am not overflowing onto other seats but I am also not the skinniest.
You remind me of one of those newborn Christians or ex-smokers who have quit the habit. More catholic than the Pope and definitely a hypocrite or an ignorant.
Being overweight is a problem yes, but don't let yourself be mislead by the airlines complaining just because the fuel prices have risen and they are desperate to find new ways of raiding your wallet.
I have been flying for the last 40 years and the airlines have "screwed" sorry for the word, the passengers in Y ever since. The seats have shrunk in size in 40 years, no matter what they want to make you believe. Never before was one talking about "cattle class" and "sardines". People have tolerated to be put into these categories without complaining.
In 40 years the world population has on average put on almost 25 pounds and grown accordingly. In the name of profit the airlines have deliberatly ignored that fact. They did not bother to increase the size of their seats. They reduced it. As a matter of fact the industry is doing this very year its first serious survey in over 20 years about passenger size. We'll have to wait another 5-10 years before seeing any changes.
Ten years ago already, I did not trust myself to send my teenage sons on a transatlantic flight in Y. None was overweight, just healthy, sporty big boys.
I ask you to divert your hate onto the airlines and leave the overweights to their problems. Criticize the junk food producers and try to cure the minority complex of the Americans who are steadily thinking that larger is automatically more beautiful.
Instead of complaining of fuel waistage (I remember times flying on a 747 with less than 30 passengers), think of food waistage with a small thoughts at all the children dying of hunger.
As far as security risks, a panic stricken skinny old lady is as much a risk or an hindrance as an overweight person. Do you want to get rid of them also as well as babies? I am lucky to have survived such an experience.
Good, I vented my anger.
I am not overflowing onto other seats but I am also not the skinniest.
You remind me of one of those newborn Christians or ex-smokers who have quit the habit. More catholic than the Pope and definitely a hypocrite or an ignorant.
Being overweight is a problem yes, but don't let yourself be mislead by the airlines complaining just because the fuel prices have risen and they are desperate to find new ways of raiding your wallet.
I have been flying for the last 40 years and the airlines have "screwed" sorry for the word, the passengers in Y ever since. The seats have shrunk in size in 40 years, no matter what they want to make you believe. Never before was one talking about "cattle class" and "sardines". People have tolerated to be put into these categories without complaining.
In 40 years the world population has on average put on almost 25 pounds and grown accordingly. In the name of profit the airlines have deliberatly ignored that fact. They did not bother to increase the size of their seats. They reduced it. As a matter of fact the industry is doing this very year its first serious survey in over 20 years about passenger size. We'll have to wait another 5-10 years before seeing any changes.
Ten years ago already, I did not trust myself to send my teenage sons on a transatlantic flight in Y. None was overweight, just healthy, sporty big boys.
I ask you to divert your hate onto the airlines and leave the overweights to their problems. Criticize the junk food producers and try to cure the minority complex of the Americans who are steadily thinking that larger is automatically more beautiful.
Instead of complaining of fuel waistage (I remember times flying on a 747 with less than 30 passengers), think of food waistage with a small thoughts at all the children dying of hunger.
As far as security risks, a panic stricken skinny old lady is as much a risk or an hindrance as an overweight person. Do you want to get rid of them also as well as babies? I am lucky to have survived such an experience.
Good, I vented my anger.
I also do not buy into the fat is a victim mentallity. With the exception of a few (1 in 10?) people, most people, skinny, fat or otherwise can control what they eat through a little self control.
Last edited by UAVirgin; Nov 11, 2004 at 7:34 am
Nov 11, 2004, 7:42 am
#33
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Originally Posted by UAVirgin
I also do not buy into the fat is a victim mentallity. With the exception of a few (1 in 10?) people, most people, skinny, fat or otherwise can control what they eat through a little self control.
I would argue that for most individuals, some even more strongly than others, strong psychological factors lead them to overindulge, and that obesity is symptomatic of an eating disorder itself. These factors often are the result of life events or conditions that are not under the control of the individual (ie: genetic - psoriasis, or life situations - abusive situations). I happen to know the research behind this because I used to work with a psychiatrist who specialized in eating disorders. People often overeat in response to a lack of perceived control over their life situations.
The bottom line is that you should never judge someone else if you don't know what their story is.
Of course, as "SuperSize me" also demonstrates how our environment plays a strong role in people overeating as well. Did you see the study about how when people were given larger sizes of popcorn containers, they ate twice as much, independent of how hungry they were beforehand? Our society has "supersized" everything, and that definitely plays a role in the obesity in America. It is ignorant to think otherwise.
Again, this definitely doesn't mean that I think that skinnier folk should be forced to give up seat space to allow for flesh overflow. The airlines are just trying to stay in business. Probably the only way out is if they followed American's model and expanded seat space and increased fares to make up for the lost revenue.
Actually, I bet that a large percentage of metabolically-challenged folks would opt to pay more to fly on an airline which did have more room, as it is as least as uncomfortable experience for them as it is for anyone else to be squashed into those seats. I used to work with such an individual, who always paid for a first class ticket rather than squeeze into coach. This could be a new marketing strategy for some up and coming airline..since Americans aren't getting any thinner, would people pay a little more to have more seat room?
Last edited by pgalore; Nov 11, 2004 at 7:53 am
Nov 11, 2004, 10:52 am
#34
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Originally Posted by SonOfACockroach
And I would say when I buy a seat, I am entitled to a seat. Not 3/4 or 1/2 of a seat, but an entire seat. If someone can not fit into ONE seat, they should be the ones who have to buy up. The situation of Mr Big overflowing the seat is a simple matter of someone taking more of something (in this case, space) than they are entitled to, at the expense of someone else. This has nothing to do with being cheap. This is about getting what you paid for. When you buy a Y ticket, you are paying for that 17.2 inches between the armrests. If that 17.2 inches is not enough for you, you should have to be the one to pay for more.
(Disclaimer: I am using an impersonal you in my response. I am not targetting anyone with my choice of words)
(Disclaimer: I am using an impersonal you in my response. I am not targetting anyone with my choice of words)
But why take away others choices? Why this bent for sameness?
Nov 11, 2004, 11:38 am
#35
Join Date: Mar 2002
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What really bugs me is having to share a forum with people who can neither spell nor form a graspable sentence. I study spelling and grammar every day, and don't see why I should have to waste my time picking through someone else's barely-comprehensible grunting.
PS: Typo my ...! It's a space-in-the-head problem.
PS: Typo my ...! It's a space-in-the-head problem.
Nov 11, 2004, 12:00 pm
#36
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Augusta, GA, USA
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I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the ticket you buy is a contract of carriage. It does not specify anything pertaining to the rights of space within a seat, however it just specifies transport from one place to another.
Also, I seroiously doubt that every passenger uses their full allotment of baggage weight. If every passenger used their full baggage weight allowance what would the airlines do then??
Also, I seroiously doubt that every passenger uses their full allotment of baggage weight. If every passenger used their full baggage weight allowance what would the airlines do then??
Nov 11, 2004, 12:25 pm
#37
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Although my butt and belly fit well within the armrests my shoulders sometimes don't, and I am very conscious of the fact that it may discomfort the people next to me. Accordingly, I will do the following.
1. Never agree to a preassigned center seat in Y. If that's all there is when I book, I will take another flight or upgrade if possible. At least I can lean my shoulders out of the way of my neighbors.
2. On long Y journeys with Mrs. 'Loo (a slip of a girl) on 3 x 3 equipment we will buy 3 seats, and try to cajole the CSR into selling the middle seat to us at the lowest allowed revenue price point (unaccompanied child, etc.) if such a tarriff exists. In most cases it damn near amounts to the "poor man's business class" experience. This is especially important on non-assigned seating flights, especially European LCCs where seating is accomplished using Portuguese highway rules. In these cases the GAs and FAs must be put into the picture. 150% of the cheapest cost is still lots cheaper than J or F.
3. Carefully select which equipment we're on. God bless Seatguru.com
4. Point out to the GA that someone next to me might be uncomfortable. This can be done discreetly and often works. If anybody should get the op-up, it should be the late-paying (hence probably higher cost and center seat-victimized) schnook rather than Mr. Linebacker.
5. Maintain elite status so this whole issue goes away as often as possible.
If you have ever flown on a tour helicopter or over-water or amphib feeder in places like the South Pacific, you know that weighing the pax is often SOP. Flying on inter-island Navajos or Otters in Fiji or the Alaska bush, you see plenty of plus-sized pax. Sometimes they will ask for more money, or they will close a flight early, sometimes (rarely) deny boarding. It works well at the counter but would be pretty hard to enforce on-line, so using the carry-on template approach (if you can't fit, you can't sit) might be the only way to get the message across to uninformed large pax. Difficult to imagine the logistics and how people wouldn't be constantly humiliated, but it probably would only be needed once for each large passenger that didn't get the message. Actually, come to think of it, such a template might help the airlines get some much-needed customer feedback on seat comfort. Imagine one of these try-me seats set up at each counter at the airport. Now wouldn't that be interesting?
The idea that your ticket means you have "purchased this space" is an attractive one, but I don't think it's wholly accurate. You've purchased transportation, not the magazine nor the pretzels nor the Bistro Bag. Your deep-discount Y ticket is the baseline - you are guaranteed a seat (for safety reasons) but comfort costs more. Same as the subway or city bus - ticket to ride, sitting optional. If 17.2" x 30" is legal, so be it, and too bad if your space (or nose or ears) are infringed by the guy next to you or the schmoe in front of you. Caveat emptor. If your seating can't comply with the law, i.e., if the big person prevents you from safe exiting, then it's the airline's, not the customer's problem.
Finally, and I've just got to say this, I'd be real curious how many of us have had the guts to talk to a large person next to us about the subject? I can't help shake the suspicion that these complaints about others' lifestyle choices are much more common on anonymous bulletin boards than in person.
I once flew two l-o-o-n-g back-to-backs in Y on a (blessedly) defunct legacy carrier, one with a very large, armrests-up, nice guy in the center seat, the next with a skinny guy flying back to his job in the middle east oil patch, who got smashed and stayed that way, and talked to me for five or six hours (until he conked) about how he despised members of certain ethnic groups, one of whom was sitting on his other side.
Can you guess which one I preferred?
1. Never agree to a preassigned center seat in Y. If that's all there is when I book, I will take another flight or upgrade if possible. At least I can lean my shoulders out of the way of my neighbors.
2. On long Y journeys with Mrs. 'Loo (a slip of a girl) on 3 x 3 equipment we will buy 3 seats, and try to cajole the CSR into selling the middle seat to us at the lowest allowed revenue price point (unaccompanied child, etc.) if such a tarriff exists. In most cases it damn near amounts to the "poor man's business class" experience. This is especially important on non-assigned seating flights, especially European LCCs where seating is accomplished using Portuguese highway rules. In these cases the GAs and FAs must be put into the picture. 150% of the cheapest cost is still lots cheaper than J or F.
3. Carefully select which equipment we're on. God bless Seatguru.com
4. Point out to the GA that someone next to me might be uncomfortable. This can be done discreetly and often works. If anybody should get the op-up, it should be the late-paying (hence probably higher cost and center seat-victimized) schnook rather than Mr. Linebacker.
5. Maintain elite status so this whole issue goes away as often as possible.
If you have ever flown on a tour helicopter or over-water or amphib feeder in places like the South Pacific, you know that weighing the pax is often SOP. Flying on inter-island Navajos or Otters in Fiji or the Alaska bush, you see plenty of plus-sized pax. Sometimes they will ask for more money, or they will close a flight early, sometimes (rarely) deny boarding. It works well at the counter but would be pretty hard to enforce on-line, so using the carry-on template approach (if you can't fit, you can't sit) might be the only way to get the message across to uninformed large pax. Difficult to imagine the logistics and how people wouldn't be constantly humiliated, but it probably would only be needed once for each large passenger that didn't get the message. Actually, come to think of it, such a template might help the airlines get some much-needed customer feedback on seat comfort. Imagine one of these try-me seats set up at each counter at the airport. Now wouldn't that be interesting?
The idea that your ticket means you have "purchased this space" is an attractive one, but I don't think it's wholly accurate. You've purchased transportation, not the magazine nor the pretzels nor the Bistro Bag. Your deep-discount Y ticket is the baseline - you are guaranteed a seat (for safety reasons) but comfort costs more. Same as the subway or city bus - ticket to ride, sitting optional. If 17.2" x 30" is legal, so be it, and too bad if your space (or nose or ears) are infringed by the guy next to you or the schmoe in front of you. Caveat emptor. If your seating can't comply with the law, i.e., if the big person prevents you from safe exiting, then it's the airline's, not the customer's problem.
Finally, and I've just got to say this, I'd be real curious how many of us have had the guts to talk to a large person next to us about the subject? I can't help shake the suspicion that these complaints about others' lifestyle choices are much more common on anonymous bulletin boards than in person.
I once flew two l-o-o-n-g back-to-backs in Y on a (blessedly) defunct legacy carrier, one with a very large, armrests-up, nice guy in the center seat, the next with a skinny guy flying back to his job in the middle east oil patch, who got smashed and stayed that way, and talked to me for five or six hours (until he conked) about how he despised members of certain ethnic groups, one of whom was sitting on his other side.
Can you guess which one I preferred?
Nov 11, 2004, 12:51 pm
#38
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: DSM
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Posts: 1,135
Well said Gardyloo.
I once had a conversation with an obese pax sitting next to me about my seat/your seat. IIRC it was on a Florida to California 767 and they had the window. I boarded first and took my seat. The person in the window took their seat and proceeded to raise the arm rest. I politely said I'd prefer the arm rest to be down but was ignored. I then lowered the arm rest and was greeted by something to the effect that they needed it up so as not to be uncomfortable. I replied that I needed it down to be comfortable. A bit of a discussion ensued (calm but firm), which resulted in the other pax storming off to get a flight attendant to straighten me out. The flight attendant had the other pax moved to a different seat.
I find that a kind, softly spoken request for the arm rest to be down works most of the time. Why I must have the conversation in the first place is what annoys me.
I once had a conversation with an obese pax sitting next to me about my seat/your seat. IIRC it was on a Florida to California 767 and they had the window. I boarded first and took my seat. The person in the window took their seat and proceeded to raise the arm rest. I politely said I'd prefer the arm rest to be down but was ignored. I then lowered the arm rest and was greeted by something to the effect that they needed it up so as not to be uncomfortable. I replied that I needed it down to be comfortable. A bit of a discussion ensued (calm but firm), which resulted in the other pax storming off to get a flight attendant to straighten me out. The flight attendant had the other pax moved to a different seat.
I find that a kind, softly spoken request for the arm rest to be down works most of the time. Why I must have the conversation in the first place is what annoys me.
Nov 11, 2004, 12:53 pm
#39
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Denver, CO USA
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Originally Posted by alanw
What really bugs me is having to share a forum with people who can neither spell nor form a graspable sentence. I study spelling and grammar every day, and don't see why I should have to waste my time picking through someone else's barely-comprehensible grunting.
PS: Typo my ...! It's a space-in-the-head problem.
PS: Typo my ...! It's a space-in-the-head problem.
I take my hat off to you for spending time daily in stud e ing Spelling and Grammar. I suspect you would be classified in the enneagram as a one, and do understand how it could be a waste of time to pick thru those thoughts not presented in a form you find barely comprehensible.
I think you have gone too far though with your labeling of grunting. Personally, I only do that when attending bull fights in Spain. And am told when I sleep, I grunt too. Lets not go there.
I want to thank you for the back handed compliment about space in the head. This is good to know; I take this as confirmation that there is room for others thoughts, views and opinions and the ability to grasp them no matter the form. I think it important to be flexible in in dealing with Overweight flyers; those with space and those more tightly rapped.
Nov 11, 2004, 1:22 pm
#40
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This is what happens when you start posts that are fruitless and then every Tom Dick and Mary start to vent their repressed feelings and thoughts. Let's discuss something constructive. Overweight people have been around for centuries and only now it is a problem ? Let's get with it people. Discuss something that will benefit all of us and not degrade any one. 
^
^
Nov 11, 2004, 1:33 pm
#41
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Originally Posted by Analise
Any reason your focus was on women? Or do you just prefer the large girth of men instead?
Nov 11, 2004, 1:46 pm
#42
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pasadena, TX USA
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I think most of the negative posters here need to take some intense diversity training....
Weather it’s a physical or mental problem these people need help and consideration- not to be calling them names like pigs and telling them they smell.
I think there is a policy about the armrest being up and having to pay for additional seat- Although most major air carriers will accommodate these people if they can without having to embarrass them or infringing on other people's space. Except for SouthWest.
I don’t think anyone that is that large likes being that way- it amazes me that the mature, educated, professional community we have here- resorts to school yard name calling, That is not going to help- slapping the donut out of their mouth (violence) is not the answer either.
People are getting larger but the seats in coach are not- that is why this problem will get worse…. I think the airlines might want to have the last row(s) of the plane with larger seats reserved for very tall or overweight people and then they would not have to be near you! I'm sure you would have a problem with that too!
Weather it’s a physical or mental problem these people need help and consideration- not to be calling them names like pigs and telling them they smell.
I think there is a policy about the armrest being up and having to pay for additional seat- Although most major air carriers will accommodate these people if they can without having to embarrass them or infringing on other people's space. Except for SouthWest.
I don’t think anyone that is that large likes being that way- it amazes me that the mature, educated, professional community we have here- resorts to school yard name calling, That is not going to help- slapping the donut out of their mouth (violence) is not the answer either.
People are getting larger but the seats in coach are not- that is why this problem will get worse…. I think the airlines might want to have the last row(s) of the plane with larger seats reserved for very tall or overweight people and then they would not have to be near you! I'm sure you would have a problem with that too!
Last edited by CraigS; Nov 11, 2004 at 1:49 pm
Nov 11, 2004, 1:55 pm
#43
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Rolling Lakes Yacht Club
Posts: 4,985
Here is my two cents.
First of all, if you are fat buy a second seat. If you cannot afford a second seat... That really is not my problem.
I have no more compassion for those who obese as I do for those who are smokers. Do we allow people to smoke on airplanes any more, nope. Why?? It was comfort and safety issue for the rest of the passengers. If someone wants to slowly kill themselves with cigarettes, I do not have to have my space invaded by it. Someone is in the process of slowly killing themself with food, ditto! The last thing I want is have someones adipose pressing up against and pushing me for 4 hours.
First of all, if you are fat buy a second seat. If you cannot afford a second seat... That really is not my problem.
I have no more compassion for those who obese as I do for those who are smokers. Do we allow people to smoke on airplanes any more, nope. Why?? It was comfort and safety issue for the rest of the passengers. If someone wants to slowly kill themselves with cigarettes, I do not have to have my space invaded by it. Someone is in the process of slowly killing themself with food, ditto! The last thing I want is have someones adipose pressing up against and pushing me for 4 hours.
Nov 11, 2004, 7:04 pm
#44
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Maybe I just don't seek out conflict, but I really don't see what the huge deal is. Okay, yes, it's not fun to sit next to someone who is extremely obese and is in my personal space. I certainly don't enjoy it. And I approve of the airlines charging these people for the extra seat.
But that doesn't give anyone a right to dehumanize someone else. To the OP: I understand your discomfort and opinions, but obviously you've done more than "strike a nerve" with people here on FT. You've insulted people, and that doesn't seem fair. Good for you for choosing a healthy lifestyle and losing so much weight; that's great. But there's no need to insult people. As I said above, I agree with the basic tenets of your post but I don't think there's any reason to hurt anyone's feelings.
But that doesn't give anyone a right to dehumanize someone else. To the OP: I understand your discomfort and opinions, but obviously you've done more than "strike a nerve" with people here on FT. You've insulted people, and that doesn't seem fair. Good for you for choosing a healthy lifestyle and losing so much weight; that's great. But there's no need to insult people. As I said above, I agree with the basic tenets of your post but I don't think there's any reason to hurt anyone's feelings.
Nov 12, 2004, 12:23 am
#45
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2002
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The OP has a simplistic view of weight gain - it is not just lack of self-control. Some people put on fat unless they stringently control their intake, others won't put on weight unless they gorge every meal. We may be jealous of those who never gain weight and can eat what they want, but there's nothing we can do about it - it is a matter of heredity.
Most people also gain weight as they age - it's partly a matter of decreasing inactivity, but it's also something programmed into the majority of us. I've seen my weight set-point rise over the years in stages, from 125 when I was 19 to my current 180, despite being extremely active my entire life - this summer I played Ultimate frisbee, a highly aerobic activity, 4-6 times a week, plus danced 2-4 times a week. The only way I dropped weight was if I just didn't eat all day. That's not very much fun.
It's nice that OP was able to lose those pounds, but let's see if he's still as svelte 15 years from now.
Most people also gain weight as they age - it's partly a matter of decreasing inactivity, but it's also something programmed into the majority of us. I've seen my weight set-point rise over the years in stages, from 125 when I was 19 to my current 180, despite being extremely active my entire life - this summer I played Ultimate frisbee, a highly aerobic activity, 4-6 times a week, plus danced 2-4 times a week. The only way I dropped weight was if I just didn't eat all day. That's not very much fun.
It's nice that OP was able to lose those pounds, but let's see if he's still as svelte 15 years from now.