Discrimination
 

Have you ever been discriminated against in your travels because of your race, religion or nationality? If so, where? What happened in your situation and what makes you sure you were being discriminated against?

I was just talking to some black Canadians who told me they found Spain to be a very racist country, but France just liberal and open to them, interestingly I would have thought they'd find the opposite to be true.

[This message has been edited by bluewatersail (edited Mar 05, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by bluewatersail (edited Mar 05, 2004).]

Yes. (Nationality)

USSR.

I was restricted as to where I could go. And, while I am not *sure* I was discriminated against, the people following me everywhere in their little teeney cars was a dead giveaway...and this while accompanied by a field grade Soviet officer. Go figure.

(BTW, this was pre-1989, while there still was a USSR)

Oh yes, and how! In Switzerland. Because of a family name having the "wrong" ending. Every single day with a stubborness that could make one sick.

When I've been in Argentina in July I've seen quite a few clerks becoming friendlier when they noticed I was Canadian. They all were surprised I wasn't American.

1. In Mexico. When the Mexicans found out I was from Europe and could speak some Spanish, they were so much friendlier.

2. In most of Asia. When we travelled as poor backpackers many moons ago, we could enter 5 star hotels, go to the bathroom, and freshen up without any problems. We were let in just because we were white. Poor locals were stopped by security.

3. In Yemen. I definitely got the feeling that most Yemenis hate *all* Westerners. Perhaps it didn't help that we were visiting just after the first Gulf War.

They like Moroccans... far enough West? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif

That said, I think you are pretty much correct.

Belgium: racist (from immigration to hotel security) and somewhat hostile.

India: very racist -- in ways you would not imagine -- place historically although not hostile.

Sweden: racist although not hostile.

Brazil: racist although not hostile.

Russia: racist and hostile.

Kuwait: racist.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I find Argentina to be amongst the least racist places around along with the UAE. In the US, racism is very much on the decline, although there are significant pockets of it here and there.

I worked in Jamaica as a consultant for the World Health Organization, and as such had diplomatic immunity. I ran into a fair amount of discrimination, but I was not sure if it was

Anti-American -- it seemed that Jamaican dislike America, but love American culture (music, film, etc)
Anti-white
Anti- diplomat

The first time I went to the Maryland
eastern shore I was prevented from using
the bathroom in the local department store
(a Sears or Ward's in Crisfield) because it
was supposed to be for whites only. It is not
that long ago where racialism was the rule of
the day here in lots of places in the US.

It is said that I broke the color bar in my
high school ... but it isn't true; there had
been a part-Asian student who graduated a
couple years before I arrived there.

Currently? Austria is the worst. Great Britain
a close second: my friend D. and I took
her (half-white) daughter to lunch at the sitdown
restaurant at the National Gallery in London,
where the waitress told me that she didn't
want to serve us, and we should go back where
we came from. Then, when the bill came, she
added an arbitrary tip, which I asked to have
taken off, owing to her attitude; she refused
- I asked for the manager, and she said he
was out. So I said, okay, we'll sit until he
arrives, which he did half an hour later.

He offered to give us the meal free. I said,
no, all I want is an apology from the
waitress. She was summoned. I recounted the
entire meal in detail, expecting her to say,
that's not true at all. Instead, she went on
another tirade about how coloreds shouldn't
be allowed in the country (we're both quite
Far Eastern in appearance) and refused to
apologize. He offered to sack her on the
spot! To which I said, at this point, just
take the service off the bill and we'll be
on our way. Never been there to eat again!

I had the same thing in 1985. We did manage to sneak out at night and trade some Levi's for military medals and black Russina caviar

Redbeard911's post reminds me that I should have added that the Russian people themselves were very nice and surprisingly candid to me. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...m/thumbsup.gif to them.

It was just the government "suits" who made me feel rather claustrophobic.

In Quebec, I have been ignored by waiters and generally treated with disrespect by shopclerks because I did not speak French. I have not been back since 1978.

Edited for spelling and to add that I've been made to feel uncomfortable in North Wales by folks who stop speaking english when the shops close and switch to Welsh in the pubs. But, I'd go back a hundred times before I'd step foot in Quebec again.

[This message has been edited by BamaVol (edited Mar 08, 2004).]

I sure have. But you can add another category: sex. A few too many times when I travel and go out to dinner alone, the maitre d seats me far back at a table by the kitchen. Why? Because a single woman dining alone does not look good to a few restaurants; I've been told that blatantly. Whenever this happens, I request to be reseated at another table of the same size in a better location. Then I never return to that restaurant. It's 2004----what is up with these restaurant managers?

Violist, does Austria surprise you as such? After all, today's news has the cannon-mouthed right-wing Freedom Party figure Haider winning a regional election there. He is an anti-semite, racist self-labelled lover of populist tyranny and dictators.

Your treatment in London is shocking and surprising. I do not think it the norm there and the manager's resolution to the matter is clearly indicative of such.

The Eastern Shore of Maryland and even Baltimore itself is quite famous for having a highly racist attitude historically, so your treatment there does not shock me as much.

Despite our race problems in the US, I think we are best situated to transcend bigoted stupidity in the long run. It may take generations for such discrimination to be exorcised completely but it will largely go. The Civil Rights movement has benefited from sensible leadership on the right and left (despite the political bickering) which puts more value in an American ethos of Constitutional liberalism, a melting or mixing pot, and a land of opportunity for all who accept America's proudest legacies. A fantasy-laden attachment to the nostalgic legacy beloved of racists and their ilk has little place left in modern America and it shows every day.

As a traditional Englishman, guess where I've met it:

Scotland
Ireland
Quebec
Miami

And in each case I wasn't really concerned. Things like this happen anywhere. Didn't hate the whole country as a result. Not justified at all. Usually the next person along was the opposite.

I do get a bit fed up with those who are constantly on patrol for any slight to their group. And likewise with those who feel any past history of discrimination against their predecessors entitles them to any special treatment nowadays. It doesn't.

GU: Austria is not a surprise. There were
I admit plenty of people there who were
perfectly polite to me, though; just that
there were those who weren't and who made
my skin crawl.

London took me completely aback. I was wearing
a YSL outfit (can neither afford nor fit into
such any more), and D. is married to someone
who is well-connected, so she dresses the
part. We were in an ostensibly civilized
restaurant in what God knows was a bastion
of civilization. That the worst example took
place there was shocking; I've been ignored
and moderately rudely treated in many
places, mostly in marginal areas, but here
not only did I "belong," I looked like I
"belonged."

Mostly in the US the racism has been, as you
say, transcended. Or at least, when it
occurs, it is much more genteel than it used
to be!

Which brings me to a semi-funny semi-offtopic
story, my last words on this subject here.
Takes place in a large US city, where I was
living at the time.

The president of the Suzuki Association of
America (that's violins, not motorcycles) was
taking off for Japan for a year to study at
the feet of the Master (this was quite a
while ago), so I had a going-away party for
him. Unfortunately, he brought a date - who
was black. On the way, they and another guest
had rocks and things heaved at them, but they
made it safely to my apartment. But then the
landlord called. He'd received a threat that
if we didn't get rid of the black woman
immediately, the house would be burned down.

One of the partygoers just turned out to be
assistant AG for civil rights affairs in that
particular state, so she called her boss and
had a police guard on the building, an
emergency restraining order against persons
unknown, and other safeguards - sort of
overkill, truth be told. But I wonder what
would have happened had we not been members
of a fairly privileged subsection of society.

VIOLIST, I don't want to be rude, but how old are you? When did these incidents happen?

To the person who said Belgium was racist, this surprises me.

Have you ever been discriminated against in your travels because of your race, religion or nationality? If so, where?

* every time I (swiss) try to enter the USA I must queu the (often long) lines of 'non-american-passport-holders' http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif
* when applying for a Visa to Saudi-Arabia (on business), I had to send in a certified copy of my christian baptisation certificate (to make sure that I am not jewish) ...
* I (swiss) don't qualify for any american credit card (even that I have an american bank account in very good standing for our Napa valley wine business), as I have no US-credit-record
* my (swiss) father wasn't allowed to marry my (german) mother (and to get her out of Nazi Germany) in 1939 without proof that his family was pure arian for at least 3 generations back ... something that swiss authorities first did decline to certify, until the then in charge captain of St.Gallen police Mr. Grueniger, now considered to be a real hero by israel and finally also swiss authorities, decided otherwise and gave my father the much needed stamp on such a statement (otherwise I would never have been born ...)
* my mother (not speaking swiss german yet) was not served/ignored after immigration to Switzerland in swiss shops during the early days of world-war II (she learned swiss german very fast then)
* even if I would become a US citicen, I would not be allowed to become President (not being born in the USA)
* as a (swiss) male, I only get the swiss state pension (AHV) at the age of 65, woman get that pension already at the age of 64
* UA MileagePlus restricts most of their mileage-bonus-promotions to USA based members ... (that's no nationality 'discrimination', but still ...).


[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited Mar 09, 2004).]

Why does it surprise you? Belgium is after all the bastion of that myth of "Europeaness". http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

I am not saying that the majority of Belgians are racist -- actually, I trust it to be only a small minority if my friends and acquaintances from Belgium are any measure of Belgium. However, there is a view amongst a sizeable minority in Brussels (like many places in Europe) that people who do not look like "traditional" or "native" _____ [fill in nationality] are naturally from the poor third world masses looking to raid the country and radically transform it.

Even in Sweden -- a presumed bastion of liberals who know not how liberal they truly are, if there ever was such a bastion -- I have heard stories such as workplace leaders (in some cases even senior judges) indicating to staff that they want "no people with foreign names". Of course the resumes of such persons are sidelined merely becauce of such "non-traditional" names regardless of the qualifications. By foreign names, they usually mean African or Middle Eastern sounding names.

Are not most multilateral organizations (such as the UN, World Bank/IMF and most regional development banks) still likely to compensate nationals from third world countries less than nationals from OECD countries despite doing the same work and posted in the same place? http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

I know the UN Peacekeepers most certainly do not get paid the same. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

I wonder if the Saudis try and pull the same junk with Americans? If they do, then I hope that our government let's loose the dogs of diplomacy on Saudi Arabia. An American is an American is an American, just like a Swiss is a Swiss is a Swiss. Asking for religious-based identification is intolerant and unbefitting of a respectable state.

That said, I know the Saudis are not keen to give tourism visas to Americans and, I have heard, even are a pain in the neck towards muslims trying to fulfill their religious duty and go on a pilgrimage to Mecca. It is said that non-muslims are not even allowed to visit, which I find to be a crock and counterproductive -- especially for a state that claims to proselytize for its national religion.

nonsense.

peace keepers are paid differently, depending on the nation/army that did send them (I know the different KAVOR salaries for soldiers serving for Denmark or Germany), the same 'goes' for people serving for the Red Cross in IRAK (I now the small difference what swiss or french RedCross people serving there currently are paid)

You might want to check into this a bit more.

I am pretty certain that there is a compensation difference at least in the case of UN and NATO peacekeepers. The excuse, of course, may be that the home country of said troops is paying the bill and salaries directly.

In Kosovo, for example the KFOR peacekeepers that were American got paid multiples more than what the others (particularly the Bangladeshis/Pakistanis) did. There are reasons for this differential, many of which are legitimate.

However, the World Bank has been known to have consultants whose compensation they try to peg based on nationality when certain nationals are working outside of their "home" country.

Pardon me if I don't answer directly http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...um/biggrin.gif but
I am older than dhammer53.

Eastern shore: before but not that much
before the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Color bar in high school: mid-1960s

Suzuki: mid-1980s

London: 1995, approximately (don't remember
the exact date; I used to go to the National
Gallery every year or two)

Austria: 1 or 2 years ago.

And in Belgium, I have the feeling that they
kind of look funny at anyone who isn't fair,
fat, and Flemish, although I am not the one
claiming that they regularly practice racism.

well, I've found Flemish people and Dutch people aren't the most cheerful people in Europe so maybe I can understand how they seemed racist. I've never compared Flemish people to Dutch people so I don't know if its fair to group them together.

I can say that generally speaking Flemish and Dutch are ultra conservative. Amsterdam is one thing, the countryside is something else.

I knew several Jewish people who said Austria is the most anti semitic place they've ever been. It's good to get all these views because I find Austrians to be some of the most helpful and friendly people I've ever come across.

I find Turks friendly and recommended Turkey to some black friends, they came back telling me they had never met such racists in all their lives as the Turks. So it's good to get all view points.

That is interesting. I have a friend from Nigeria who worked in Istanbul for a few years and loved it for his years there and goes from DC to Istanbul still for vacations.

Sure.. how 'bout this one..

My significant other and I had rented a car and wished to both be listed as drivers. The rental car company wanted to charge us extra for the second driver, but it turned out that they had a policy which waived the charge for spouses. Apparently, significant others living at the same address were entitled to the same waiver -- but only if the two persons were of opposite gender. As a cohabitating male-male couple, we didn't qualify.

Fortunately, once we pointed out the discriminatory nature of this policy, the clerk very kindly found a way to make an exception for us. (But the company's discriminatory policy still stands, as far as I know.)

Here in the "Land of the Free" (that's the U.S., by the way), discrimination based on sexual orientation is still legal (though it's been banned in some states), and at the moment, it appears that the U.S. Constitution may soon be amended to incorporate a highly discriminatory provision. With so much official government endorsement of discrimination, I guess it's a surprise that we don't actually see *more* of it as we travel!!

This policy might be easy to quietly circumvent if your sig other has a gender-neutral name? (I am assuming he either does not, or he was required to show up at the desk.)

Frequently and subtly on gender as well. Expecting random blokes standing next to me in queues to be my partner/SO, the table thing that Analise talked about as well. It happens so frequently that I start to not notice it after a while.

Unfortunately, both parties have to present themselves (and their driver's licenses) at the registration desk when picking up the car.

But I appreciate the suggestion! :-)