raffy

(01-14) 19:24 PST SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) --

An American Airlines pilot was fined nearly $13,000 Wednesday on accusations he made an obscene gesture when being photographed at the airport as part of entry requirements for U.S. citizens, officials said.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...959EST0857.DTL

magexpect

Thank God it happened in Brazil, had he done that in the US, he'd be on his way to Gantanamo for a year or two...

Blumie

I'm no fan of the Brazilian policy requiring photos and fingerprinting of U.S. citizens, or the U.S policies that instigated this mess, but that seems like a steep price to pay for the right to express one's feelings.

I am curious whether U.S. law would permit the same treatment of a Brazilian who expressed his displeasure when being photographed and fingerprinted in the U.S. (Of course, under the current administration, that Brazillian may soon find himself shipped out to Guantanamo Bay indefinitely with no rights whatsoever.)

[Edited to add: Hey, magexpect: brilliant minds . . .]

[This message has been edited by Blumie (edited Jan 15, 2004).]

LemonThrower

actually, many have given their lives so we can have that freedom in the U.S., so its actually a rather cheap price to pay. It unfortunate he didn't have a better use for his right to expression, but $13,000 is a cheap price to pay. I would not surrender my First Amendment rights for such amount.

Blumie

Many have also given their lives so we can have freedom from being shipped off to Guantanamo Bay indefinitely, too.

magexpect

Actually I was trying a sarcastic comment to let the steam out...

The US law would have reacted differently: The fingerprinting is taking place while at immigration, if I am right. In this occasion, the Immigration has full power of decision over a foreigner entering the USA and as such would have probably just denied entry, which means the pilot would have been directly put into the same plane he arrived with. There is, to my knowledge, no appeal to the decision, as a foreigner has to sign an entry form that stipulates the relinquishing to any appeal rights. Just the refusal to sign this form would be sufficient to be refused entry.

[This message has been edited by magexpect (edited Jan 15, 2004).]

Blumie

I suspect you're correct. Absent more egregious behavior, I don't think arrest (or even deportation to Guantanamo) would be likely.

Oceanbound222

The idiot bush has created such anger, rage, and disgust throughout the world and it came to light by a fellow american in South America. you should hear what the rest of the world is saying, mr bush.

ozstamps

This was a joke question right?

Well I am not wearing rose coloured glasses as some Americans reading this may be.

If I did the same thing after my insane THREE HOUR WAIT at Dulles last week there would be more than a fine. There would have been cuffs, FBI, TSA, Special Forces and the Marines 'helping' drag me away you can bet. A whole squadron of them.

Not long ago a few shaved head goons in jungle camouflage greens would have been be pointing a loaded M-16 assault rifle in either ear just to be sure.

Think about it.

Brazil is simply doing what the US chooses to do with impunity to anyone that the Americans deem to be the slightest bit suspicious or a "risk". And when they look in the mirror they do not like what they see.

Make an obvious light hearted joke about a hand grenade in your carry on and be prepared to spend the next 24 hours tied to a chair with bright lights in your eyes etc.

The US are so busy looking at telling OTHERS how to run their security (Rod Eddington has said BA had TWENTY TWO different US agencies demanding their pax manifests on the much publicised cancelled LHR-IAD flights!) that they let folks walk thru the same Dulles security with a pocket full of live bullets this week, headed for LHR. See Virgin story from early this week.

It is like a bad Monty Python script.

Go read up about the Fall of the Roman Empire folks.

You can p!ss off and bully the entire world for just so long. Then the world will jump up and bite you on the .... Ask Julius Caesar.



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~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

shuuy

I agree with Glen. If I flipped my bird to a TSA agent, I can probably guess that I will never be flying on an airline without a full body-cavity search in the US ever again.

Blumie

Sadly, I don't know if I meant it as a joke or not. Prior to 9/11 and the reactions of the "president" and his administration, I would have meant it as a serious question. Certainly, an obscene gesture would not have been met with a laugh even in the old days, and perhaps could have resulted in either (1) having entry into the U.S. denied or (2) being put through the wringer by the INS and customs before entry was permitted (i.e., lengthy interview and rifling through all of your belongings). I do not believe, however, that arrest would have been one of the likely results.

All this has changed, however, under the current regime. And unfortunately, none of us, I think, really wants to exercise our right to challenge the new order, or even to speak out against it. Yeah, many of us are happy to speak out against it on this board, but how many of us are volunteering to mouth off to the INS agent after waiting in line for three hours at DFW? And of course those poor slobs on the front lines at the INS, customs and the TSA merely are carrying out their orders, so I'm not sure it's entirely fair to take it out on them. Fortunately, many of us have the right to challenge and speak out against the new order at the voting booth, but we all know that the odds of us being successful are uncertain at best.

BTW, I think the "joke" about the grenade is inappropriate in all circumstances. The jest in which your comment is made may be obvious to you, but may not be to the TSA agent. Moreover, I don't think we want to give the TSA agent the discretion to decide who is joking and who is not.

GadgetFreak

Actually, there have been arrests of US citizens not at the airport for having signs protesting government policies in non-approved locations. Apparently one can only have signs disagreeing with the administration in prearranged places now. Neater that way. The good news is that so far the courts have cut these people loose pretty quick. Al least for now, it depends on how many judges they appoint. I would not at all be surprised if a foreign national was arrested at immigration for this.

dogcanyon

I've never heard of this. Can you cite specific locations and dates or do you have links to news stories with details?

Teacher49

Sorry, I have not yet learned to include links in posts to this forum. Go to google.com and type in "Free Speech Zones."

The limitation of any display of dissent- no matter how peaceful - to so called "Free Speech Zones" is standard practice whereever POTUS goes. Many other levels of government - right down to the cities - are now placing protesters in these zones out of line of sight so that new cameras will never show a politician with a dissenting placard in the background. This happened her in San Francisco during the swearing in of our new mayor. A few people holding up a "Thank goodnes for term limits" sign, were moved quite far away.

Some say that our democratically elected officials may NEVER even have to hear or be otherwise aware that dissent is present.

I have read of people hoisting signs at the last minute outside of a free speech zone - in a sea of other favourable signs - and then being dragged physically away and arrested. People arrested in these situations do get off inevitably. But their rights have already been sucessfully interfered with and they will already have paid a penalty via rough handling and time wasted.

It's what we're fighting for!


[This message has been edited by Teacher49 (edited Jan 17, 2004).]

GadgetFreak

Thanks, I am trying to track down some links as well. I will post in a day or two. Pretty busy at the moment but I will find them soon and post. They basically separate people carrying favorable signs from unfavorable ones. The critical sign bearers being put several miles away in some cases. This assures that the media pictures only show supporting pictures. On some occassions, people have had critical signs under their supportive signs. They peel off the top sign to show the protest sign and have been arrested. I think in one recent case in North Carolina the person in fact wasnt let off for this but was actually sent to jail. Ill get some details and post soon, unless someone else saves me the trouble and beats me to it