"I felt so bad my child was kicking the seat"
Jan 6, 2004, 10:17 pm
#46
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Location: Chicago, IL USA
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After traveling with our two year old in a car seat, I began to realize why they like to seat families in bulkheads. In the United regular economy, there was not much room to spare when the seat in front reclined towards the carseat. If she moved her legs more than a couple inches it would make contact with the reclined seat. Just imagine sitting in a chair with your feet dangling a few feet above the ground and not being able to move them. It would be extremely difficult for an adult, and next to impossible for a child, no matter how well behaved.
Even the best behaved child will likely move around a bit. Sure, they could be calmed with drugs, which in the long run will just make matters worse. (Unless we start allowing flight attendants to carry tranquilizers to sedate the other unruly fliers, or anybody who does anything that will offend somebody else.) Part of a 'non-perfect' kid learning to be a good traveler involves making mistakes. And unfortunately that may involve them kicking people.
On a return trip, we sat in United's Economy Plus. The few extra inches gave our daughter room to move around her feet without bumping the seat in front. (Though she did occasionally tap the seat in front.)
Southwest is one of the best airlines for traveling with children. The families with young children board first and get their pick of seats. Other passengers can seat themselves far away from the children if they don't want to be bothered. Also the sets of seats facing each other give kids plenty of room to kick without hitting anybody.
Most children are infrequent travelers, and each trip is a new experience. And thus, they get the worst seats in the plane, often fighting just to get seats where a family can sit together. The child has probably been traveling for a long time and has had to make significant adjustmant to his routine, not the least of which is trying to sit still for a long time in an uncomfortable surrounding.
Meanwhile the 'frequent' travelers have their favorite more comfortable seats, they've mastered the airport routine, and in a familiar, comfortable surrounding.
Even the best behaved child will likely move around a bit. Sure, they could be calmed with drugs, which in the long run will just make matters worse. (Unless we start allowing flight attendants to carry tranquilizers to sedate the other unruly fliers, or anybody who does anything that will offend somebody else.) Part of a 'non-perfect' kid learning to be a good traveler involves making mistakes. And unfortunately that may involve them kicking people.
On a return trip, we sat in United's Economy Plus. The few extra inches gave our daughter room to move around her feet without bumping the seat in front. (Though she did occasionally tap the seat in front.)
Southwest is one of the best airlines for traveling with children. The families with young children board first and get their pick of seats. Other passengers can seat themselves far away from the children if they don't want to be bothered. Also the sets of seats facing each other give kids plenty of room to kick without hitting anybody.
Most children are infrequent travelers, and each trip is a new experience. And thus, they get the worst seats in the plane, often fighting just to get seats where a family can sit together. The child has probably been traveling for a long time and has had to make significant adjustmant to his routine, not the least of which is trying to sit still for a long time in an uncomfortable surrounding.
Meanwhile the 'frequent' travelers have their favorite more comfortable seats, they've mastered the airport routine, and in a familiar, comfortable surrounding.
Jan 7, 2004, 8:47 am
#47
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Redding, CT
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I wonder if their is any evidence in conditioning like Pavlov's dogs as my story indicates. Our son has traveled 52,000 miles and is now 8 months old. For those of you wondering, we are on an expat assignment in Argentina where he was born with our families in ATL and Connecticut. His first flight home was at 6 weeks and his last was for Christmas.
At the risk of jinxing myself-I swear he gets better every time and was great to begin with. I honestly believe he "knows" by now that he is somewhere different and he has to sleep in this throne (his car seat-we always buy him a seat) and he accepts it and the behavior modifications that go with it such as sleeping upright, not yelling (a happy yell he does at home), and generally sitting still for a 10 hour flight. He certainly doesn't exhibit those qualities at home all the time. Anyway he has been flying a lot and seems to enjoy it so we will continue to do it. Hopefully as he continues to transition into a full toddler it doesn't get worse.
Fortunately the flights are overnight which I think helps alot as well.
At the risk of jinxing myself-I swear he gets better every time and was great to begin with. I honestly believe he "knows" by now that he is somewhere different and he has to sleep in this throne (his car seat-we always buy him a seat) and he accepts it and the behavior modifications that go with it such as sleeping upright, not yelling (a happy yell he does at home), and generally sitting still for a 10 hour flight. He certainly doesn't exhibit those qualities at home all the time. Anyway he has been flying a lot and seems to enjoy it so we will continue to do it. Hopefully as he continues to transition into a full toddler it doesn't get worse.
Fortunately the flights are overnight which I think helps alot as well.
Jan 7, 2004, 9:35 am
#48
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by kef0913:
On my last flight I had a 50ish business man behind me who felt the need to stand up 6 or 7 times on a 1 hr commuter flight. Each time he stood he propped himself up using my headrest. Sometimes he missed the headrest and used my head. He seemed put out when I gave him an annoyed look after the second head smashing. All the while my four year old sat next to me eating her snack and coloring in her coloring book.
....
The ease with which many air travelers blame a horrible flight on a child (sometimes rightly and sometimes not) while not complaining about equally offensive behavior from adults makes me wonder about the childhood of those complaining. </font>
On my last flight I had a 50ish business man behind me who felt the need to stand up 6 or 7 times on a 1 hr commuter flight. Each time he stood he propped himself up using my headrest. Sometimes he missed the headrest and used my head. He seemed put out when I gave him an annoyed look after the second head smashing. All the while my four year old sat next to me eating her snack and coloring in her coloring book.
....
The ease with which many air travelers blame a horrible flight on a child (sometimes rightly and sometimes not) while not complaining about equally offensive behavior from adults makes me wonder about the childhood of those complaining. </font>
I don't discriminate based on who disturbs my trip.
Jan 7, 2004, 9:42 am
#49
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Mountain Trader:
I travel with my dog all the time and before his first flight, we spent hours getting him ready. Now, most of the time the other passengers don't even know he's onboard. I think most 3 year olds can be similarly assimilated, and if one can't, then that child is not ready to fly. . .
(edited by DaDOK)</font>
I travel with my dog all the time and before his first flight, we spent hours getting him ready. Now, most of the time the other passengers don't even know he's onboard. I think most 3 year olds can be similarly assimilated, and if one can't, then that child is not ready to fly. . .
(edited by DaDOK)</font>
Seriously, though, I do agree that there is no magical 'right to fly' and 'I am paying for my kid as much as you pay yourself.' Face it, some kids are just not ready for the confines of air travel, and parents should be sensitive to that.
I do not expect every child to be perfect all the time for the whole flight, and so I do put up with a certain amount of seat kicking, table-playing, etc. However, I DO expect the parent to make a good effort to stop such behavior or keep it to the minimum. I think that is what bothers pax the most -- not so much the kid's behavior, but the utter lack of effort to control it by the parent.
[This message has been edited by DaDOKin DC (edited Jan 07, 2004).]
Jan 7, 2004, 1:32 pm
#50
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tolerance and respect is what matters for adults and children. as a parent who travels with a 3 year and 12 month old, I sympathize with the difficulty of keeping both children calm for extended periods of time. let's recall how little room there is in economy seating -- just moving the child across the aisle or regularly accessing the backpack is going to bump the passenger in front.
BUT before we start ripping the people with kids (I mean really, dose them up with Benadryl? send your seat back rapidly to sprain an ankle) let's consider all the other courteous passengers.
i weigh 140. How about the overweight passengers who inconvenience me in many ways? how about the rude sleeper who pushes his/her seat all the way back and keeps it there all flight? Or the window seat occupant who has to urinate 4-5 times on a 3 hour flight?
Or how about the abuse most likely committed by people here? Oversized carry on baggage that does not fit horizontally in the overhead so you turn it sidways? Placing your overhead in the front of the plane even though you may be 2-20 rows back?
What punishment do you have in mind for them?
BUT before we start ripping the people with kids (I mean really, dose them up with Benadryl? send your seat back rapidly to sprain an ankle) let's consider all the other courteous passengers.
i weigh 140. How about the overweight passengers who inconvenience me in many ways? how about the rude sleeper who pushes his/her seat all the way back and keeps it there all flight? Or the window seat occupant who has to urinate 4-5 times on a 3 hour flight?
Or how about the abuse most likely committed by people here? Oversized carry on baggage that does not fit horizontally in the overhead so you turn it sidways? Placing your overhead in the front of the plane even though you may be 2-20 rows back?
What punishment do you have in mind for them?
Jan 7, 2004, 2:33 pm
#51
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by user999991:
i weigh 140. How about the overweight passengers who inconvenience me in many ways? how about the rude sleeper who pushes his/her seat all the way back and keeps it there all flight? Or the window seat occupant who has to urinate 4-5 times on a 3 hour flight?
Or how about the abuse most likely committed by people here? Oversized carry on baggage that does not fit horizontally in the overhead so you turn it sidways? Placing your overhead in the front of the plane even though you may be 2-20 rows back?
What punishment do you have in mind for them?</font>
i weigh 140. How about the overweight passengers who inconvenience me in many ways? how about the rude sleeper who pushes his/her seat all the way back and keeps it there all flight? Or the window seat occupant who has to urinate 4-5 times on a 3 hour flight?
Or how about the abuse most likely committed by people here? Oversized carry on baggage that does not fit horizontally in the overhead so you turn it sidways? Placing your overhead in the front of the plane even though you may be 2-20 rows back?
What punishment do you have in mind for them?</font>
Parents need to control their kids. Reread this thread for the suggestions offered because there is no excuse whatsoever for permitting your child to kick a seat just like there is no excuse for an adult to kick a seat. Capiche?
[This message has been edited by Analise (edited Jan 07, 2004).]
Jan 7, 2004, 3:24 pm
#52
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by user999991:
tolerance and respect is what matters for adults and children. as a parent who travels with a 3 year and 12 month old, I sympathize with the difficulty of keeping both children calm for extended periods of time. let's recall how little room there is in economy seating -- just moving the child across the aisle or regularly accessing the backpack is going to bump the passenger in front.
BUT before we start ripping the people with kids (I mean really, dose them up with Benadryl? send your seat back rapidly to sprain an ankle) let's consider all the other courteous passengers.
i weigh 140. How about the overweight passengers who inconvenience me in many ways? how about the rude sleeper who pushes his/her seat all the way back and keeps it there all flight? Or the window seat occupant who has to urinate 4-5 times on a 3 hour flight?
Or how about the abuse most likely committed by people here? Oversized carry on baggage that does not fit horizontally in the overhead so you turn it sidways? Placing your overhead in the front of the plane even though you may be 2-20 rows back?
What punishment do you have in mind for them?</font>
tolerance and respect is what matters for adults and children. as a parent who travels with a 3 year and 12 month old, I sympathize with the difficulty of keeping both children calm for extended periods of time. let's recall how little room there is in economy seating -- just moving the child across the aisle or regularly accessing the backpack is going to bump the passenger in front.
BUT before we start ripping the people with kids (I mean really, dose them up with Benadryl? send your seat back rapidly to sprain an ankle) let's consider all the other courteous passengers.
i weigh 140. How about the overweight passengers who inconvenience me in many ways? how about the rude sleeper who pushes his/her seat all the way back and keeps it there all flight? Or the window seat occupant who has to urinate 4-5 times on a 3 hour flight?
Or how about the abuse most likely committed by people here? Oversized carry on baggage that does not fit horizontally in the overhead so you turn it sidways? Placing your overhead in the front of the plane even though you may be 2-20 rows back?
What punishment do you have in mind for them?</font>
And what about AIDS victims in Africa?
The other issues you raise are not the issues of this thread. You don't get to deflect attention from the issue at hand by trying to mask it behind others.
The bottom line is that if children cannot behave on an airplane, then they should not be taken on an airplane until they can behave. As another poster said, your right to bring children on an airplane ends at the point where your children infringe on other passengers.
Jan 8, 2004, 12:40 am
#53
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Your right not to be "infringed upon" by children or anyone else for that matter ends when you choose public transportation.
Jan 8, 2004, 2:05 am
#54
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by missydarlin:
Your right not to be "infringed upon" by children or anyone else for that matter ends when you choose public transportation.</font>
Your right not to be "infringed upon" by children or anyone else for that matter ends when you choose public transportation.</font>
Bring back smoking! Why cover your mouth when you sneeze? Need to belch - how loud can you go? Go ahead and get really drunk and sloppy.
In any public place - theater, street, train or plane - we are each still responsible for being civil and considerate.
As the father of four, I agree with those who say that it is the repsonsibility of the parent to make a FULL time good faith effort to supervise their child on a flight. A brief effort followed abdication of responsiblity while others suffer is not enough.
Jan 8, 2004, 4:26 am
#55
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Teacher49:
. . . As the father of four, I agree with those who say that it is the repsonsibility of the parent to make a FULL time good faith effort to supervise their child on a flight. A brief effort followed abdication of responsiblity while others suffer is not enough. (edited by DaDOK)</font>
. . . As the father of four, I agree with those who say that it is the repsonsibility of the parent to make a FULL time good faith effort to supervise their child on a flight. A brief effort followed abdication of responsiblity while others suffer is not enough. (edited by DaDOK)</font>
Jan 8, 2004, 7:00 am
#56
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At the risk of repeating what others have said, I get the sense that there is a polarised view on this:
If you don't have children then it's the parents' fault because they can't discipline their children
If you do have children then there is some sympathy for the difficulty in keeping young children entertained during a long flight when for most of it they are strapped into their seats.
Well, I have two children and I can tell you that keeping a two year old entertained for 5 hours is a pretty tricky proposition, particularly when they are used to being active and not restrained.
We have flown a great deal with out daughter (she managed to get herself *S during the final 3 months of last year) and she is generally extremely well-behaved, if active.
From time to time she probably babbles too much to the person beside her or behind her but I see no reason to restrict that too severely because I get a lot of adults doing that.
Also, she has, unintentionally, hit her feet against the seat in front because there is no where else for her legs to go. She is disciplined accordingly and we have apologised to those affected. This has never been a problem.
I do understand people's irritation at these things, but I don't think they are any greater irritation than some otherthings we all regularly experience in flight:
- The person who bores you to death with their life story
- The person who gets outrageously drunk and either passes out and snores or babbles endlessly
- The person who has not had a close encounter with a bar of soap in 5 days
- The person who asks to get through because they've had 15 cups of coffee just before the flight
- etc etc etc
The bottom line:
- Don't single out children
- Don't go spouting a lot of crap about how you would discipline children if you don't have any genuine first hand experiences
If you don't have children then it's the parents' fault because they can't discipline their children
If you do have children then there is some sympathy for the difficulty in keeping young children entertained during a long flight when for most of it they are strapped into their seats.
Well, I have two children and I can tell you that keeping a two year old entertained for 5 hours is a pretty tricky proposition, particularly when they are used to being active and not restrained.
We have flown a great deal with out daughter (she managed to get herself *S during the final 3 months of last year) and she is generally extremely well-behaved, if active.
From time to time she probably babbles too much to the person beside her or behind her but I see no reason to restrict that too severely because I get a lot of adults doing that.
Also, she has, unintentionally, hit her feet against the seat in front because there is no where else for her legs to go. She is disciplined accordingly and we have apologised to those affected. This has never been a problem.
I do understand people's irritation at these things, but I don't think they are any greater irritation than some otherthings we all regularly experience in flight:
- The person who bores you to death with their life story
- The person who gets outrageously drunk and either passes out and snores or babbles endlessly
- The person who has not had a close encounter with a bar of soap in 5 days
- The person who asks to get through because they've had 15 cups of coffee just before the flight
- etc etc etc
The bottom line:
- Don't single out children
- Don't go spouting a lot of crap about how you would discipline children if you don't have any genuine first hand experiences
Jan 8, 2004, 7:15 am
#57
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LondonElite:
Well, I have two children and I can tell you that keeping a two year old entertained for 5 hours is a pretty tricky proposition, particularly when they are used to being active and not restrained.
We have flown a great deal with out daughter (she managed to get herself *S during the final 3 months of last year) and she is generally extremely well-behaved, if active.
From time to time she probably babbles too much to the person beside her or behind her but I see no reason to restrict that too severely because I get a lot of adults doing that.
Also, she has, unintentionally, hit her feet against the seat in front because there is no where else for her legs to go. She is disciplined accordingly and we have apologised to those affected. This has never been a problem.</font>
Well, I have two children and I can tell you that keeping a two year old entertained for 5 hours is a pretty tricky proposition, particularly when they are used to being active and not restrained.
We have flown a great deal with out daughter (she managed to get herself *S during the final 3 months of last year) and she is generally extremely well-behaved, if active.
From time to time she probably babbles too much to the person beside her or behind her but I see no reason to restrict that too severely because I get a lot of adults doing that.
Also, she has, unintentionally, hit her feet against the seat in front because there is no where else for her legs to go. She is disciplined accordingly and we have apologised to those affected. This has never been a problem.</font>
At the same time, nobody (no matter what the age) must infringe upon kicking or physically bothering somebody else.
Jan 8, 2004, 8:33 am
#59
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LondonElite:
Well, I have two children and I can tell you that keeping a two year old entertained for 5 hours is a pretty tricky proposition, particularly when they are used to being active and not restrained.
The bottom line:
- Don't single out children
- Don't go spouting a lot of crap about how you would discipline children if you don't have any genuine first hand experiences</font>
Well, I have two children and I can tell you that keeping a two year old entertained for 5 hours is a pretty tricky proposition, particularly when they are used to being active and not restrained.
The bottom line:
- Don't single out children
- Don't go spouting a lot of crap about how you would discipline children if you don't have any genuine first hand experiences</font>
I have kids so I can comment, there is no way I would allow my kids to disturb others. They are past that age now, but if they did cause a problem, it was once and that was it. As a flyer I can put up with it once, but not on-going or when the parent doesn't know how to control the kid. No one in another seat should have to put up with it, as has been stated in this thread an awful lot of times.
This thread is about kids, not other annoyances as other continue to bring up. Seems to me like some people who have kids that are problems on a plane like to think its OK because there are other annoyances. Go start a different thread, this one singles out the kid issue.
Jan 8, 2004, 9:07 am
#60
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LondonElite:
True, and we do.
I suppose my point was: who polices the adults that p!ss everyone off?</font>
True, and we do.
I suppose my point was: who polices the adults that p!ss everyone off?</font>